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2011 CORE RULEBOOK PAGE 9 COMBAT ACTIONS:
A close combat action can be given to a character to activate a close combat attack that targets an adjacent opposing character.
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2011 CORE RULEBOOK PAGE 13 ELEVATED TERRAIN
Characters at different elevation levels are not considered adjacent for any game effect.
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PAC QUAKE
Gice a character a close combat action; this characters damage value becomes 2 and is locked. Make a close combat attack that targets all opposing characters this character can attack with a close combat attack. Each character that tales damage from this attack is knocked back.
I understand what everyone is saying, don't get me wrong. If a normal earth quake hit, it would shake buildings no problem. But in the game I don't see how with regards to Elevation when her power does not ignore it.
Is it a close combat attack? Yes
Are they on different elevations? Yes
Does her power ignore elevation? No
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
I understand what everyone is saying, don't get me wrong. If a normal earth quake hit, it would shake buildings no problem. But in the game I don't see how with regards to Elevation when her power does not ignore it.
Is it a close combat attack? Yes
Are they on different elevations? Yes
Does her power ignore elevation? No
You forgot one:
Is the character 2 squares or less away?
If yes, then it is treated as if it was adjacent to Quake. Elevation is not mentioned, so it does not affect this SP.
And I would have no problem agreeing with that if it were not for the part under elevation that's states "for any game effect"
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
And I would have no problem agreeing with that if it were not for the part under elevation that's states "for any game effect"
Would you say Larfleeze cannot use Poison against an enemy on a different elevation that is adjacent to an Orange Construct?
Quote : Originally Posted by nbperp
Orange Constructs: Orange Construct objects are objects that can't be picked up and are removed from the game if Larfleeze is KO'd. Whenever Larfleeze is moved, after actions resolve you may move any or all Orange Construct objects an equal amount. Larfleeze considers characters adjacent to or in the same square as an Orange Construct object to be adjacent to Larfleeze for Poison and close combat purposes.
Ah, finally an argument based on the same perception.
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2011 CORE RULEBOOK PAGE 17 SPECIAL POWERS
Special powers that altar the way in which a standard power works only altar the standard power by the specified effects. All other restrictions and conditions set by the standard power are still in effect for the use of that power.
His power allows for poison and close combat purposes to be allowed for characters adjacent to his constructs. But it is defying the rule of elevation.
Give me a minute to ponder this.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
Characters at different elevation levels are not considered adjacent for any game effect.
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Game Effect: A power, ability, or other rule than can affect a game.
Then we have another game effect:
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Characters occupying the two squares through which a character can change elevations can make close combat attacks against each other as if they were adjacent.
There is no rule that says "for any game effect except those that specifically contradict this rule". (That is simply a rule of thumb we use to stay sane...) This means the 'as if adjacent' and actual adjacently are NOT equivalent because otherwise the rules specifically contradict themselves.
This means:
Quake: requires adjacency
SP: treats the figure AS IF they were adjacent if they are within range 2
Is the figure adjacent? No
Can the attack be made anyway? Yes
It's that simple.
The 'as if', 'considered', 'regardless of' and 'may target' wording all imply that they are exceptions to the standard rules. The difference in wording is more sloppiness than intent. It would be better if they all included the word 'ignores' which has a defined meaning in the glossary.
I'm at work now so its hard for me to comment to much on the subject but:
Nothing has a full defined meaning in the glossary.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
I think where you're getting hung up is on the fact that they're not adjacent, and you're right that they aren't. The part you're overlooking is that they don't need to be adjacent for her special brand of quake. Don't let the phrase, "as if they were adjacent," mislead you too much.
@Jak - trust me I'm not Hung up on the adjacency part. It's the rules on Elevation part I'm Hung up on.
@Quebster - Yeah I know how Larfleeze works. I have 6 of him (tried to get more for norm but friends are greedy). I also under stand how Quake's and Rulk's special powers are supposed to work.
I honestly saw that little part on Elevation "for any game effect" and thought hey that's a big inconsistency. I think I have brought a good argument to the table that maybe it will get looked at in the future. Thanks all for the debate.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
Another similar example would be cases of special Outwits like Crispus Allen's or Skrull Spider-Woman's. In those cases, the Outwit is based off of adjacency, and therefore has been ruled to be used on Stealthed figures, as the requirement of adjacency in the SP trumps the requirement that LoF is needed even in adjacency.
Similarly here, the requirement of "as if adjacent" means that everybody within the 2 square radius is technically adjacent regardless of blocking terrain or elevated terrain, even though those terrains would typically render characters non-adjacent. Her power doesn't need to specify that it ignores terrain, as it specifies that they are to be considered adjacent, and therefore legal targets.
Quote : Originally Posted by DemonRS
Justify to me why this thread is necessary and I'll keep it open..
Quote : Originally Posted by Girathon
It pissed me off all weekend rorschachparadox wasn't dead.