Thats all part of the fun!

Rulebook p. 6

This really isnt a discussion I would start with a new player, but as a judge it is something I would want to consider way before the tournament starts so that I can think about how I would make a ruling.

Any rule can be taken to an extreme.

For instance what is the duration of WILLPOWER? Can I ignore pushing damage for the entirety of the game because it once appeared on my dial? I would think not.

Or what is the duration of Agent 13....
So can Sharon Carter use RS and Stealth the whole game because Agent 13 once appeared on her dial?

A judge always has the responsibility to interpret rules before enforcing them. Researching how a rule became a rule can always be helpful for a judge when coming to a decision about how he is going to make a ruling.

We're getting a touch ridiculous at this point...

That's what happens when you let the law of wording trump the consideration of intent.

I'm confused. Avatar of Death's effect should end when the character is KO'd. Is that not the case currently?

I would say that it is the case, but the wording of the 'countered or lost' rules need to be clarified so that it is more obviously the case.

I'm not arguing the intent of the rule. I'm not arguing your insight or knowledge. I'm not saying your interpretation is anything less than flawless. But I will say this, if what you say is correct (and I believe it is), then it is ABSOLUTELY not poor Interpretation it is inexcusably piss poor wording of the rules. It doesn't need to be "tightened" up, it needs to say something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.


Cheers,
Jon Id Schultz

This issue of effect duration came up after a long debate of what things were removed from play when a power was countered. Everyone agreed that things like barrier tokens and smoke cloud tokens should leave play. What about Web tokens (the game effect that brought up the argument), or action tokens for incap, or even damage from RCE!

I was the first one, publicly, on this board, to mention that it appeared the way things were played was that if an ability had an effect with a set duration, we removed it from the game if the power was lost. However things that did not have a specified duration were generally left alone.

This then became the rule. Did I make the rule or did I just pin point something game design had been toying around with? I don't know. It really doesn't matter to me.

At this point though, the text of the rule has created some strange interactions now since we equate KO with a power being lost or countered. If you ask me, KO should be different than just losing a power or having a power countered.

I think the right thing to do would be to make it so that when something is KO'd, their effect on the game is completely removed unless their power or ability specifies that it continues to effect the game after they are KO'd. This might mean some errata for some powers (the ones that are meant to keep working, like Sabertooth), but it fixes silly things like the possible applications of Thanos' trait or even Kid Zoom's special power.

Then again, maybe the intent is for all that stuff to keep effecting the map. The problem is, we will never know.

What is known is that the rules are really, REALLY reaching a level of stupid in terms of teaching new players, or even for veteran players to keep up on. This needs to be addressed.

The rulings of "countered or lost" refers to the model currently being in play and having say... "all of its abilities are countered" (no idea who does that or why, just for sake of arguing) If the model itself isn't on the field, it's special power's all cease to exist for purposes of playing.

Here is an example of a trait that lasts after a character is ko'd:
-Baron Zemo(chaos war)-
Since it says "when you build your force", an action taking play before the game starts, it would last after Baron Zemo is removed from play.

The ability of Mr. Sinister thought from Chaos war that says:
This one specifically says "THIS GAME" on it, so it would last well after he is/isn't removed from play.
-=---------

As part of the rules that i believe someone quoted before about "uses and possesses" refers to abilities and powers, nothing to do with traits.

So, unless a trait says a time frame printed in its ruling on the character's card, it ends when the player leaves the games.

So we have this thread:
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370094

where a Deputy says Dormamu's effect lasts forever, but that it's under discussion. That's from late May. I haven't seen any other official comment, so where does that leave us?

It has been ruled with other characters that KO is the same thing as having a power countered or lost, and therefore powers and abilities without a specified duration for their effect would continue to have their effect influence the game. The natural conclusion of this is that Thanos' trait never ends, etc.

That is a power though, and as stated in the rulebook it remains even if the power is countered/lost. The that some of our members and me are referring mostly too is a trait.

A trait is an ability. No different.

I would say for something to have a "Duration" that thing must have a beginning and an end.
Thanos' power has no beginning or end listed. It is not tied to the concept of duration at all. It is static, and exists only while the power giving it does.

Other powers that have been ruled to persist the remainder of the game have a clear beginning of when that effect begins, and no mention of when it ends, meaning it begins but does not end.

Thanos' power never begins. It is not tied to rules of duration. This is how I am ruling it in my head, I am not saying this logic is 'accurately' reflected in the rules.