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I'm not sure you're understanding my point. It's not that the math is hard (it's definitely not), it's that the wording isn't immediately clear to everyone. In any game, that's a problem.
Again, please understand that while I'm not stupid and I understand what you mean, many players and especially new players are not going to understand the "nuance" between halving and using half. If you're going to fix the wording, great, it's as simple as always using the word replace when you want to replace, and saying something like "Use half of the total value after modifiers" when you don't want to replace. Just make it perfectly crystal clear what is meant from reading the power alone. On a personal level, I understand why one is a replacement and one isn't, but I still just don't like how there's a golden rule that is "replace then modify" when you're using one value and not the other, and that's somehow not replacement, so modifiers happen before. It's weird.
Basically, I don't want to have oranges like the old crew refuse to fix problems with the game just because they have a ruling correct. Rules are great, but any game can be made better; the status quo isn't good enough. I very, very much appreciate statements like "We are working on many different areas to increase clarity." This is one of those areas, so thank you for your work.
Absolutely. Even if something is correct down to the letter, if most people don't get it, it isn't much use. I'm with you there. My lengthy explanation was for some others in the thread who were having a bit of trouble distinguishing between the two, not so much directed at you as you seemed to understand the idea but had issue with the lack of language used to explicitly convey the difference.
The concept is one which many effects rely on, and it works as it should, so I don't see a change happening in *how* it works. It does seem to reverse the order of "replace then modify" (though it actually doesn't), and may seem weird, but it does make sense once understood. I'll definitely bring it up to the others to see if we can make it easier to understand on the first read. I believe we can find a way to leave the mechanic functionally the same while better explaining the difference in process,
I'm all for clarity and a lower learning curve, and clarity / intuitiveness are two of our major goals. A high learning curve is bad for new players, so to me, anything we can do to reduce that barrier through clearer wording while keeping the complexity that makes the game interesting is a good thing.
Absolutely. Even if something is correct down to the letter, if most people don't get it, it isn't much use. I'm with you there. My lengthy explanation was for some others in the thread who were having a bit of trouble distinguishing between the two, not so much directed at you as you seemed to understand the idea but had issue with the lack of language used to explicitly convey the difference.
The concept is one which many effects rely on, and it works as it should, so I don't see a change happening in *how* it works. It does seem to reverse the order of "replace then modify" (though it actually doesn't), and may seem weird, but it does make sense once understood. I'll definitely bring it up to the others to see if we can make it easier to understand on the first read. I believe we can find a way to leave the mechanic functionally the same while better explaining the difference in process,
I'm all for clarity and a lower learning curve, and clarity / intuitiveness are two of our major goals. A high learning curve is bad for new players, so to me, anything we can do to reduce that barrier through clearer wording while keeping the complexity that makes the game interesting is a good thing.
Bolded part is great. There's nothing wrong mechanically, so this is really great.
I can't express how impressed I am with you new orange guys. I'm serious, you all should be Blues, because now I feel like there's some hope.
Quote : Originally Posted by Typhon
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I wouldn't call the concept that setting A to a value relative to B doesn't change B in any way "nuance".
And if Pulse Wave went through all this effort to make this point clear, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Pulse Wave is the only game effect I can find that tells you to use half of a Combat Value for an effect where that half of a Combat Value is not a Replacement. I consider that poor wording and counterintuitive.
I also consider that nuance.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
We are working on many different areas to increase clarity, and if this turns out to be a major point of misunderstanding, it will be addressed as well.
Let me try two last examples to try and explain without my "boring math" being snipped..
Ex1: Suppose this scenario: There is a pile of coins. You and I will both take some, and the number I take will be half of yours. So my coins = half of your coins. You take $1, so I take half of that, 50c. How much money do you now have? $1
Second scenario: There are a pile of coins. You will take some. You take $1. Now cut the amount you took in half. So halve your coins. How much is left? 50c.
Ex2: If you make a snowball, and I will make one half the size of yours, after I'm done, what size is yours? The same it was before, not replaced.
So if the Area of Effect is half the value of your range, what is your range value now? The same it was before. This is why it is not a replacement. Your range value is not replaced with anything. It stays the same and is only used for reference to determine what Area of Effect equals. Halving a value is only a replacement if the value itself changes.
Setting a value equal to a halved version of itself is a replacement. So saying your range is halved is saying your range is now half of what it was. Only one value remains, the new (replaced) range.
Setting a value equal to half of something else is not a replacement. So saying AoE is equal to half your range leaves two values. AoE which is half of your range, and Range, which stays the same.
I wouldn't call the concept that setting A to a value relative to B doesn't change B in any way "nuance".
Some really great examples! I will direct anyone who does not understand this aoe issue directly to this post.
The issue is that area of effect is new. The rulebook could probably be expanded, or clarified on, to explain how area of effects are determined and that they are different and independent of the combat values of a character once it has been determined what the area of effect is.
Pulse Wave tells you to use the character's range to determine the area of effect. However, from that point on you are no longer doing ANYTHING with the character's range. You are using area of effect to figure out who is going to get hit.
The issue is that area of effect is new. The rulebook could probably be expanded, or clarified on, to explain how area of effects are determined and that they are different and independent of the combat values of a character once it has been determined what the area of effect is.
I agree with all of this except the bolded part. Yes, AoE is new, and additional clarification may be helpful, but there is nothing in the way AoE is written to indicate that AoE is "independent" of Combat Values, that is a nuance of how Pulse Wave works.
The Area of Effect for any game effect is determined by whatever that game effect says to use. No limitations need to be added to the Rulebook AoE wording, since those specifics should be provided in the effect description of the AoE.
Just because we don't have an effect that states "the Area of Effect is all characters within Range" doesn't mean we won't get one. Rewriting AoE so it is "independent" of Combat Values is unnecessary and could just cause more confusion in the future.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
I agree with all of this except the bolded part. Yes, AoE is new, and additional clarification may be helpful, but there is nothing in the way AoE is written to indicate that AoE is "independent" of Combat Values, that is a nuance of how Pulse Wave works.
The Area of Effect for any game effect is determined by whatever that game effect says to use. No limitations need to be added to the Rulebook AoE wording, since those specifics should be provided in the effect description of the AoE.
Just because we don't have an effect that states "the Area of Effect is all characters within Range" doesn't mean we won't get one. Rewriting AoE so it is "independent" of Combat Values is unnecessary and could just cause more confusion in the future.
It is independent of combat values in that it calculates itself based on combat values sometimes, but has no effect on what the combat values are by making that calculation.
We will sit down next tournament and I will explain this all in person, maybe it will help a bit
I agree with all of this except the bolded part. Yes, AoE is new, and additional clarification may be helpful, but there is nothing in the way AoE is written to indicate that AoE is "independent" of Combat Values, that is a nuance of how Pulse Wave works.
The Area of Effect for any game effect is determined by whatever that game effect says to use. No limitations need to be added to the Rulebook AoE wording, since those specifics should be provided in the effect description of the AoE.
Just because we don't have an effect that states "the Area of Effect is all characters within Range" doesn't mean we won't get one. Rewriting AoE so it is "independent" of Combat Values is unnecessary and could just cause more confusion in the future.
Its already inferred in the rulebook. Area of Effect is independent of combat values. Once you determine an Area of Effect, your range no longer matters (and it might not have mattered to begin with, depending in how the Area of Effect was determined).
Look at Energy Explosion. None of your combat values matter when determining what the Area of Effect for Energy Explosion is.
You could still have an Area of Effect equal to a character's range after specifying explicitly that Area of Effect is independent of combat values.
It is independent of combat values in that it calculates itself based on combat values sometimes, but has no effect on what the combat values are by making that calculation.
We will sit down next tournament and I will explain this all in person, maybe it will help a bit
Does this apply to everyone, or are you only going to Dairoka's venue to give a talk?
Sun Tzu Clan Leader
Quote : Originally Posted by Uberman
When a game hums along, full of action and excitement, it's a barnburner!
When it trudges forward glacially, bogged down by debates over ridiculous rules minutia, it's a Barnstable!
Here's my take:
The Baron gets a power action to use Running Shot. He moves to 4 from Catwoman and 5 from Cyborg. You give him a ranged combat action to use PW and determine the Area of Effect. Because you have not yet drawn LOF no effects are being ignored: Catwoman prevents the +2 from increasing the AoE, so it's 4. He now draws LOF to all characters within the AoE and so ignores her trait, so he will get the +2 to attack and damage single targeting Catwoman.
This is exactly right
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It is independent of combat values in that it calculates itself based on combat values sometimes, but has no effect on what the combat values are by making that calculation.
As I read Area of Effect, the Rulebook explains what it is and how it functions, but does not detail how to determine what the AoE is. AoE, when used, is defined by the effect that is generating the AoE. If it is accurate that the AoE will be independent of a Character's Combat Values, then this should be addressed in the description of AoE in future prints, or at least warrant a Player's Guide entry.
As it stands, I see nothing in the Area of Effect Rulebook entry that states or implies "independance" from Combat Values.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword