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Did someone email the darn rules people? You know they don't read this forum anymore right?
If you can't pulse-wave through the falcon, then that's just silly lawyer stuff.
I emailed them when I first read this thread a couple of days ago but haven't received an answer back, it might be they are debating again how to rule it or maybe they are all just recovering from Origins.
Last edited by bluerat; 06/17/2014 at 04:57..
The biggest selection of heroclix in the UK www.blueratgames.com
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Judges make bad rulings. It happens. Its no different than oracle pulse waving through a friendly character via matching keywors. The marker is still there for iron pharaoh to draw a line of fire and so is the character with oracle or the eva w/ fantomex. Regardless you use that latest ruling. Unless otherwise there is a new ruling or someone gets a legit email capable of validating it.
Not sure how much clout the Oranges have anymore, but this is a response I received from Chrisdosmil a couple of weeks ago:
"1. The check for Primes and Uniques is continuously checked except when using Mind Control. You can't swap for a Prime if you already have one on your force or a Unique if you have the same Unique on you force.
This is incorrect. It is not supported by any rules documentation. Nothing in the rules for Primes Supports this nor does anything for Mind Control or the clarifications for it state that it is an exception to this.
Unless this is updated in the rules documentation then you can either select a Prime with Copycat if you already have one OR you cannot Mind Control a Prime if you already have one on your force. With the current rules language it could be one or the other, but not both.
The Rules as written only support that Primes are only checked during force construction.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
I emailed them when I first read this thread a couple of days ago but haven't received an answer back, it might be they are debating again how to rule it or maybe they are all just recovering from Origins.
Seeing as only two of them were there at Origins that should not be the case.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
The Rules as written only support that Primes are only checked during force construction.
There appear to be lots of things that say they only check during force construction but it seem like the rules team are extending this to cover the entire game. Case in point, the entities state that "when building your force" they can be assigned to someone 25pts or more, but I received an email from the Rules team saying that if Copycat had an entity assigned then she couldn't swap with Splitlip as this would create an illegal game state. Also that Mordru couldn't be replaced by his Giant Sized version with an entity attached either.
As I am sure you are aware just because the rule isn't written in the rulebook/players guide then it is still a rule if an orange has posted on it or you have received an email from the rules team (leaving aside the problem with how you can tell if someone has received an actual rule and is not just making it up).
The biggest selection of heroclix in the UK www.blueratgames.com
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There appear to be lots of things that say they only check during force construction but it seem like the rules team are extending this to cover the entire game. Case in point, the entities state that "when building your force" they can be assigned to someone 25pts or more, but I received an email from the Rules team saying that if Copycat had an entity assigned then she couldn't swap with Splitlip as this would create an illegal game state. Also that Mordru couldn't be replaced by his Giant Sized version with an entity attached either.
As I am sure you are aware just because the rule isn't written in the rulebook/players guide then it is still a rule if an orange has posted on it or you have received an email from the rules team (leaving aside the problem with how you can tell if someone has received an actual rule and is not just making it up).
This is incorrect and not supported by the rules documentation. Nothing states that individual email responses are updates to current rules documentation and I highly doubt that will ever be the case due the ease of fraudulent claims of email responses.
The rules due state that a forum post by the Deputies can update the current rules, but it does not carry that over to the email system.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
This is incorrect. It is not supported by any rules documentation. Nothing in the rules for Primes Supports this nor does anything for Mind Control or the clarifications for it state that it is an exception to this.
Unless this is updated in the rules documentation then you can either select a Prime with Copycat if you already have one OR you cannot Mind Control a Prime if you already have one on your force. With the current rules language it could be one or the other, but not both.
The Rules as written only support that Primes are only checked during force construction.
What an orange says is law. Even if its not in the book. Having 2 primes or 2 of the same unique creates an illegal game state. But you are correct about the mind control about not being stated it is exempt. This is one of those occasions where it was an unintentional occurance. Similar to malekith. What happens is an orange jumps in and makes a call. Hopefully malekith and this new mind control problem will be added to thwe player guide.
Emails are a legitimate way to an answer to a a question pertaining to a problem. Lately in oranges post, they have the link and comment stating you can contact for further questions. The comment lately you have had in your post when you have tried to make a correct call. Because its not in the book doesn't mean its not a rule. The problem with emails is validating it to be correct.
What an orange says is law. Even if its not in the book. Having 2 primes or 2 of the same unique creates an illegal game state. But you are correct about the mind control about not being stated it is exempt. This is one of those occasions where it was an unintentional occurance. Similar to malekith. What happens is an orange jumps in and makes a call. Hopefully malekith and this new mind control problem will be added to thwe player guide
An Orange has not jumped in a made a call. That is what I'm saying please re-read my statement. What I said was nothing supports (nor should it) that an email response changes the current rules or rules documentation.
The Rules do state that if a Deputy posts on a public forum under their assigned user name then that can change the rules and is considered to be how things work.
You cannot have rules change from what is written based on an email ESPECIALLY when not once has a deputy logged on and confirmed the contents of or debunked an email ruling.
This is especially troubling because I had a member tell me that they were going to purposely post an incorrect email and claim it was from them to see what would happen.
Using the email system is fine for one on one questions and/or clarifications. It is not fine for changing the rules of the game.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
The rules due state that a forum post by the Deputies can update the current rules, but it does not carry that over to the email system.
If you read the latest tournament rules it does state that you can contact the rules team on their email address and that questions about rules should be addressed to that email address. Is that not good enough?
The biggest selection of heroclix in the UK www.blueratgames.com
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If you read the latest tournament rules it does state that you can contact the rules team on their email address and that questions about rules should be addressed to that email address. Is that not good enough?
That works for clarifications, but it does not say that email responses are can supersede the written documentation the way it does for posts from the Rules Team.
I'm all for using the email system for clarifications of different interactions. I am not ok if it changes the actual rules of the game.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
That works for clarifications, but it does not say that email responses are can supersede the written documentation the way it does for posts from the Rules Team.
I'm all for using the email system for clarifications of different interactions. I am not ok if it changes the actual rules of the game.
I posted a link a few post ago. The iron pharaoh question. That has already been answered and chris an orange has stated and ruled mind control is exempt from the prime/ unique problem.
Whether ur ok with emails changing rules or not is not of concern. It is what it is.
Whether ur ok with emails changing rules or not is not of concern. It is what it is.
Again, this is incorrect. Nothing in the rules states that an email response can change the actual rules of the game.
That is both a fundamental and large scale change to the game that has more ramifications than just Copycat. It would also Impact the X-Men Gold Team Base, Zombies, Possession Traits etc...
So, someone saying that I got an email saying X, Y, Z which changes the game at such a large scale level cannot be utilized. This is not be accepting or not accepting anything. This is me following the rules as written.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
Again, this is incorrect. Nothing in the rules states that an email response can change the actual rules of the game.
That is both a fundamental and large scale change to the game that has more ramifications than just Copycat. It would also Impact the X-Men Gold Team Base, Zombies, Possession Traits etc...
So, someone saying that I got an email saying X, Y, Z which changes the game at such a large scale level cannot be utilized. This is not be accepting or not accepting anything. This is me following the rules as written.
If a few rule deputies/etc come to our venue to try and get more people to visit dragon con. And players ask questions about the game and the rule dudes answers, then that is a legitimate answer, but for them only. They can't prove it, email or not but that is what an official told them. They can't proove their statement but that doesn't mean they are wrong. I don't know if your just being hard to deal with or what, but I do know you are giving me a headache. If a random tells me this is how so and so does, will I believe it? Probably not. Why? It is not a reliable source for me to go on but thay doesn't mean he is wrong.
The problem is we live in a day where someone's word means as little as the ant beneath my boot.
Give me and example of the xmen gold team base, zombies/etc problem. All I know is an orange said no more than 1 prime or 1 of the same uniques can be on a force at any given time except for mind control. If a zombie team has caped crusader prime on it and they infect and ko an opposing caped crusader. Then the infection does not work as an illegal game state would occur.
I posted a link a few post ago. The iron pharaoh question. That has already been answered and chris an orange has stated and ruled mind control is exempt from the prime/ unique problem.
Whether ur ok with emails changing rules or not is not of concern. It is what it is.
The only orange postings in your link are on the subject of falcon placement and occupancy. It has nothing to do with Pulse Wave. The Pulse Wave discussion is just what this is: a discussion. That would have even less bearing to me than a rules e-mail.
As for Dragon's point, well it's not really a rules change is it. It is a rules clarification. Obviously the rules as they read them are different than how you read them.
Besides, here is what the rulebook says in the glossary:
Quote : Originally Posted by 2014 Rulebook Page 25
PRIME: A character rank represented by a green ring around the outer edge of a character’s base. Only one Prime character can be added to a given force.
The rule book states that if the rule book and the glossary terms are somehow in conflict, than you use the rule book. I see no conflict between the ideas of only having one prime on your build during force construction, and adding a prime to a given force. Those are very distinct, though related concepts.
Quote : Originally Posted by 2014 Rulebook Page 24
Part 5:
THE HEROCLIX GLOSSARY
In this section, you’ll find a summary of various terms used in the rules for HeroClix. The actual rules text within the rule book may provide more detail for some of these terms and should be used if the descriptions are in conflict.
If a few rule deputies/etc come to our venue to try and get more people to visit dragon con. And players ask questions about the game and the rule dudes answers, then that is a legitimate answer, but for them only. They can't prove it, email or not but that is what an official told them. They can't proove their statement but that doesn't mean they are wrong. I don't know if your just being hard to deal with or what, but I do know you are giving me a headache. If a random tells me this is how so and so does, will I believe it? Probably not. Why? It is not a reliable source for me to go on but thay doesn't mean he is wrong.
The problem is we live in a day where someone's word means as little as the ant beneath my boot.
Give me and example of the xmen gold team base, zombies/etc problem. All I know is an orange said no more than 1 prime or 1 of the same uniques can be on a force at any given time except for mind control. If a zombie team has caped crusader prime on it and they infect and ko an opposing caped crusader. Then the infection does not work as an illegal game state would occur.
You realize that you are saying the same thing as I am correct? You cannot take someone at their word. Someone performing a copy/paste of an email is you taking that person at their word that they are being honest.
If you personally received an email that changes one of the fundamental aspects of the game then I would expect you to judge it thusly. However, you cannot expect someone else to judge it the same way and take you on your word that this is how it works.
That is all that I'm saying. This is not some little or minor change. It is a HUGE change with large scale ramifications. As such I would not expect anyone to take someone at their word without sound evidence to support it. A post saying I got an email that says xyz does not count as solid evidence.
This is not me being difficult or hard to work with. This is me being realistic. I would like to think that my history on this site with the rules would speak for itself and that I am someone who actively tries to help the community with the rules for this game.
If you choose to ignore that aspect and call me difficult then I see no further reason to continue this discussion as clearly we have met an impasse.
Quote : Originally Posted by jbship628
The only orange postings in your link are on the subject of falcon placement and occupancy. It has nothing to do with Pulse Wave. The Pulse Wave discussion is just what this is: a discussion. That would have even less bearing to me than a rules e-mail.
As for Dragon's point, well it's not really a rules change is it. It is a rules clarification. Obviously the rules as they read them are different than how you read them.
Besides, here is what the rulebook says in the glossary:
The rule book states that if the rule book and the glossary terms are somehow in conflict, than you use the rule book. I see no conflict between the ideas of only having one prime on your build during force construction, and adding a prime to a given force. Those are very distinct, though related concepts.
Copycat does not add a figure to your force. Copycat makes a figure friendly to your force just like Mastermind.
If you contend that making a figure friendly to your force violates this rule then you are also saying that you cannot mindcontrol a Prime character if you have a Prime character on your force. We already know that you can indeed use Mindcontrol on a Prime Figure if you have a Prime Figure on your force which invalidates your argument.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.