While the oopsie about Giants blocking fire between levels 2 and 3 (or higher) is not great, I am happy with this ruling overall. If Great size characters did block lines of fire between elevation 2 while on elevation 1, it would have created a silly situation itself. In the cargo plane example, I could be on an elevated platform and the tank in the middle would block my line of fire to a giant standing behind it. But then if I tried to shoot over the tank to the other elevated platform, the giant would have blocked my line of fire.

It's probably somewhere obvious that I missed, but what is the reference for this?

I wish I could tell you. I'm not sure if its actually in writing any place official.

Not being snarky, but then how is it confirmed?

For what it's worth, here is a compilation of everything affecting LOF between the RB, CRS, and PAC. Let me know if anything is missing.

RB12 Blocked by Characters
RB12 Blocked by Blocking Terrain
RB12 Blocked by Higher Elevation
RB20 Hindered by Hindering Terrain
RB20 Hindered by Obscuring Terrain
RB21 Blocked by Blocking Terrain(unless Source and Target are both on Higher Elevations)
RB21 Blocked by Walls(unless Source and Target are both on Higher Elevations)
RB21 Blocked by Doors(unless Source and Target are both on Higher Elevations)
RB24 Blocked by Higher Elevation
RB24 Blocked by Blocking on Lower Elevation(when Source and Target are on different Elevations)
RB24 Blocked by Elevated Terrain higher than the Lower Elevation(when Source and Target are on different Elevations)
RB24 Blocked by Giant or Colossal Characters(when Source and Target are on different Elevations)
RB24 Not Blocked by Normal or Tiny Characters(when Source and Target are on different Elevations)
RB24 Hindered only if Target is in Hindering(when Source and Target are on different Elevations)
RB25 Hindered by Heavy Object
RB34 Not Blocked by other squares of Multi-Base Characters
PAC Smaller Characters do not block line of fire
PAC Not blocked by Elevated Terrain or Outdoor Blocking(if Source or Target has Great Size)

Unfortunately it has to be inferred through a few scattered lines of text.

Would be easy to come up with something for WIN, but even without that, like LJ said, it doesn't make any logical sense rules-wise unless you go with the way he would rule these things at his venue. (And same goes for my venue as well )

I get that we can 'override' some of this and state that things like blocking/hindering, standard characters on lower elevations don't affect LOF between equal elevations. But to say a standard character can see another standard character on opposite sides of a colossal character who happens to be on a lower elevation than them so long as the two standard characters are on equal elevations doesn't make sense with either the rules, or game logic, or real logic. I understand real logic doesn't have much of a bearing, but rules and game logic should. If we're inferring our own rules, why not stick to something that makes sense?

Sure it does... and really it is about being consistent. I could see a case being made for being consistent the other direction though that you can't "see over" G/Cs no matter what... and that would make sense too.

We need to just ask on WIN since the premium Warehouse map is Modern Legal and you can easily craft scenarios with Modern pieces too if needed.

A great size character used to "exist at all elevations", which is why some people would think they should block line of fire. And why we can't make an intent judgment here.

But simply following the letter of the rules, we'd have to read that a great size on 1 doesn't block line of fire between two elevation 2s. Because nothing says it does.

That being said, I'll do a search on the WIN because I feel like this came up before. And we are getting a new rulebook/PAC that may clear this up in a few days.

Agreed on all points Wolv. I was taking the letter of the law approach and going with what LJ said about the bullet point for differing elevations, but I can definitely see where that is also slightly problematic. I can't stop thinking about this thread actually it is so problematic to my rules brain lol.

I scoured WIN modern and past rulings because I was certain this was answered somewhere but I can't find it

Just to point out another corner case of the rules as written, I believe this is covered by the general "characters block LOF" rule on page 12:

So a character of any size on elevation 1 would technically block the LOF between two characters on elevation 2. But that's silly. We just need some rules text specifying that squares on an elevation lower than both the target and origin squares should be treated as clear terrain for LOF purposes.

Could you help me understand the letter of the law process here? From my understanding, there is a rule saying a character blocks line of fire, and nothing to state that it doesn't, only with the exception of LOF between different elevations and Standard/Tiny characters.

Well, we finally got this cleared up.

http://win.wizkids.com/bb/viewtopic....8472999d13c5c2

I appreciate that they answered it in a way that clears up our other questions as well.

Yessssssss.

The timing here of these answers coming is funny to me given our conversation last night but I will take it :-)

The walls have corn.