but masterwoo0, in my second example i also used seven tools and chained solemn judgement and they clearly understood that i intended for it to be negating the summon (since they said i couldn't).

if they understood that solemn judgement was negating a summon in the second example they must have also knew that was my intention in the first as well.

also you keep saying "responding to the summon" and that you only have 1 chance. but when you are responding to something that doesn't have a spell speed the timing is correct for the entire chain, not just the first link. this is shown in negate attack, trap hole, torrential tribute, sakuretsu armor, etc. negating a summon should follow the same rule, you can respond anywhere within the chain, because the entire chain is in response to the summon (declaration)

also royal oppression has the same timing as other summon negators. the only difference is that it can also negate effects that summon monsters as well as summonings themselves. also i don't think there is a single scenario where you can chain its effect to MST. if your using it to negate a summon then MST cannot possibly be in that chain. and if your negating an effect that summons, it would have to be chained directly to that effect the same as horus lv8, dark paladin, ryu senshi, etc.

You're trying to compare two different classes of cards together when they can't be compared. Counter traps are to be played directly after cards they are 'countering' (Negate Attack is the only exception and that is because of its own particular ruling). Normal trap cards have the luxury of having a more flexible activation period because spell speed 2 effects can be thrown around anywhere on the chain (normally) until counter traps are introduced, and then the timing for cards activated at that point is very strict.

Both players get one shot at negating a summon, that's just the way the timing was set up.

Since Royal Oppression is a Continuous Trap Card, it must be face-up when its effect resolves. I used MST as an example to destroy RO, and RO chaining to MST to negate the summon, which would cause it to resolve, destroy the monster, then MST would destroy RO.

Woo...

When the opportunity window opens to negate a summon you are only allowed to play cards such as "Solemn Judgment", "Horn of Heaven" etc. Cards such as MST would not be allowed to activate in this window. You could not start a chain with MST or chain to a "Solemn Judgment" for example since the timing is incorrect.

exactly, if you are negating a summon then MST cannot be a part of that chain. and if you are using RO to negate an effect that summons, then RO must be chained to that effect, you cannot chain RO to MST since MST does not summon.

also
i completely disagree. normal trap cards (and other speed2 effects) have that luxury for the same reason that negate attack does, they are not responding to a chainable effect, they are responding to something that isn't on the chain therefore the timing is correct throughout the entire chain.

the counter trap rule that they must chain directly to what they counter isn't exclusive to counter traps. its a rule that is applied to all effects that respond to the activation of another effect. this is seen with royal oppression, horus LV8, dark paladin, a-team: trap disposal unit, etc. the reasoning behind this is that in order to respond to an effect (its activation) is to chain directly to it.

the rule wasn't exclusive to counter traps, it just so happened that most counter traps fall into that catagory.

but when a card is responding to something that isn't on the chain, it cannot chain directly to it and therefore the timing is correct for the entire chain. that is why things like negate attack, trap hole, and mirror force can be played at any time within the chain. the same should be true for negating a summon, it is something that is not on the chain.

also i again look at the judge list post, if you were to look at the original post it was in referance to it was about negate attack being able to be anywhere in the chain and i was asking if the same was true for negating a summon. i stated that solemn judgement was being used to negate a summon, and the first example it was confirmed that it did work. given that my question was making a comparison to negate attack and solemn judgement being used to negate a summon i'd say i'm right. (since my first example was meant to directly mirror the original question involving negate attack, 7 tools, and another negate attack.)

hmm... i don't know why, but my post on the judge list (that mastwoo0 found) shows up as its own thread even though it was done is response to the following thread and still has "re:" in the heading. here is the original thread about negate attack, notice how the way it points out the reason for negate attack being different, because its not responding to a chainable effect. which is exactly what i've been saying, and that reasoning should also be spread to other cards that aren't responding to a chainable effect.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2258#2258

Is anyone paying attention?

Player A summons Gemini Elf with Call of the Haunted

Player B pays 800 life points to negate the summon with Royal Oppression

Player A chains Mystical Space Typhoon to Royal Oppression's effect


What does MST have to do with responding to a summon or starting a chain? I dont believe I mentioned anything about MST starting a chain.

you said the following
which is incorrect.

also your current example does not involve negating a summon, it involves negating a trap card. we are not talking about RO's ability to negate an effect, we're talking about negating a summon.

when dealing with the negation of a summon (NOT the negation of an EFFECT that summons) you cannot chain MST to royal oppression's effect of negating a summon. royal oppression's effect of negating a summon has special timing, things like MST cannot be used in that chain. everything i know of states you can only use effects that negate a summon and counter traps.

the only other effects that might be usable are speed 2 effects that negate other effects (based on the fact that you can use things like horus lv8 and ryu senshi in the damage step)

the timing for negating a summon is similar to the damage step, you can only use effects designed for that timing as well as effects that specifically respond to those effects (like counter traps and things like ryu senshi/dark paladin).

Your muddying the water to try to salvage your point. Cyber Dragon then.

Player A Special Summons Cyber Dragon from hand

Player B pays 800 life points to negate the summon

(satisfied??)

Player A chains MST to destroy Royal Oppression

Player B pays ANOTHER 800 life points to chain RO's effect to MST to negate the summon.


I didnt think it would be so hard to explain a simple scenario. Anyway, a chain is a chain as long as it is not one involving Counter Traps, which all state that you cannot chain to a Counter Trap unless it is in response to the previousl card.

As an extra bonus, Royal Oppression would have to have been face up already in both situations.

I think I made that obvious about 5 post ago....

Find yourself reading a lot of books from the middle??

Oddly enough, yeah I do. Ray Bradbury said that he often walked around the library, opened random books and read random lines. I gave that a shot and its pretty interesting.


You said it had to be face to when it resolves. I meant it had to be (already) face up when it activates, at least in the MST example. As in:

1. Special Summon a monster.
2. Activate MST to destroy the face up RO.
3. Chain RO's effect to negate the special summon.

again masterwoo0 you cannot use MST in that chain. if you are negating a summon you can only use effects that negat a summon or that negate a card used in that chain, MST cannot be used. i said all of that in my last post (the last 3 paragraphs you quoted from me)

duel with wings, your example is even more flawed, it looks like what i originally thought masterwoo0 said. you cannot use MST when you are responding to the summon declaration (before the summon is successful) because it does not negate a summon. MST cannot be used until the summon is already successful, and by that time it is too late to negate the summon with royal oppression's effect.

You can use MST in a Chain if it is to destroy the card that is being used to negate the summon.

I have no idea what "you guys" are actually talking about.

Royal Oppression has been face-up on the field for 20 turns already, since somehow, no one payed attention to my original post that stated that it was...

Player A pays 800 life points to negate the Special Summon of Cyber Dragon.

Player B chains to Royal Oppressions effect with MST, which is a legal chain, since Royal Oppression is Chain Link 1.

Player A pays ANOTHER 800 life points to chain RO's effect AGAIN to MST, forming Chain Link 3.

Royal Oppression resolves first, like I originally stated in the beginning, which would negate Cyber Dragon's summon, and then MST would destroy Royal Oppression.

How hard is that to understand? I am NOT responding to the summon with MST. I am chaining to the effect of RO with MST, and RO is in turn, chaining to MST.

how can you use MST in a chain dealing with the negation of a summon?

everything i've ever heard said that only cards that negate a summon can be used at that time. with the obvious exception of counter traps and other cards that are used to respond to effect. similar to the damage calculations, except replacing effects that modify atk/def with cards that negate a summon.

This is not the same as negating a summon with a Spell Speed 3 effect.

You can activate any effect that can legally be activated, meaning, it has a legal target, and has been set for at least one turn, or meets the activation requirement.

I can chain

Interdimensional Matter Transporter
Torrential Tribute
Ring of Destruction
Compulsory Evacuation Device
Royal Decree
Call of the Haunted
Dust Tornado

And none of these cards have to respond to a Summon. They only have to "chain" to the activation of a Trap Card or effect.

I understand what you are getting at, but you have to remember, Royal Oppression is a Continuous Trap Card that must be on the field when its effect attempts to resolve. If it is destroyed, which you are saying you can't even attempt to do, it would resolve without effect, and the Special Summoned Monster would remain on the field.

Spell Speed 3 negations are different because they can only be Countered, per Game Rules, as to where a Counter Trap can only respond to the immediate effect that precedes it in a chain (we have already beat the "Negate Attack" Horse to death, so please, no one mention that....).