Ok, so from what I've been seeing so far, the major problems are these:

Chargemonkeytude
Tankdrop
Mega Damage Arty
VTOLs

With a few other minor problems:

Capturing
Overpowered SE (Agility)
Worthless SE (ECM)
AP glut

Is that pretty accurate so far?

@ tunabreath...

I've playtested Snipers vs SS Towed AAA before and it just never ends well for the Snipers. Two merc snipers is 116 points with 2 pogs doing 2 AP each (for a total of 4 damage). 4 SS Towed AAA is 128 points with 12 pogs doing 1 AP each (for a total of 12 damage). Sure, the SS arty is fragile... but it costs the same and TRIPLES the firepower. I know who invariably won the artillery duel when I playtested it.

Warflail, another big one that must be there is the fact that an infantry can tie down a 'Mech. Bad news bears there. That is still a very big problem. I remember the thing I hated most back in DA was the base and break method. Granted I eventually used it, but if I were rolling around in my Atlas, I would not be concerning myself with the hoverbike at my feet, so much as the Blackhawk formation about to AS my butt in to oblivion. Mechs should be able to fire out of base contact with some units.

The game has a great balance actually.

lets see if wizkids listened.

People said infantry capture swarms were too powerful. So out came the artillery.
people complained that vech with high minimums were wasted units. They come out with transports. People say arty to strong. They come out with units that can move and shoot. helicopters. People complain mechs are no good. They come out with Dasher. People complain Dasher is too good. Me get confused.

So what about the game is breaks it?

Is it the tank drop, the arty, the VTOLS, or the Buff 'Mechs?

I'm thinking all these DIFFERENT stratagies have strengths and weaknesses.

So we have a game with 3-4 different strategies that are broken. I thought however that meant there were just 3-4 good stratagies for army building. I thought a broken game meant if you pretty much had to play ONE certain type and style or you were screwed. This however is clearly not the case.

Oh yeah and it's not mentioned much but the army type I have the most success with is 3 tonka 'mechs with some support. I usually do pretty well too.

Oh for the record. Some say the game is called MECHwarrior and should be mostly about 'mechs, we have the solaris rules. and If you've ever played traditional mechwarrior with just mechs on both sides that would get really boring really fast. I hope the game continues to be combined arms focused with many options (including tank drop, VTOL, arty, heavy options all as viable army options.)

I agree with the majority here...

My beef that has not been stated is that artillery affects all units within the blast radius...how does 1, 2, or 3 arty shots affect my infantry, armor, mechs, and cruising VTOLs? OH!! and i forgot they have AP (just waiting for the anti-infantry arty) I could see ground units OR cruising VTOLs but not both...somehow the great inventors of the time have made a round that damages everything from the ground up through the sky and yet cannot hit the exact area that is targeted by the firer....

how can units firing the same weapons have different ranges? weapons are the same, it is the shooters that are not this variable range stuff is for the birds and really does unbalance the game....

Faction purity...how many Liao forces have Swordsworn arty support? how often have you seen wolf units in highlander armies? the rulebook says this is a dark time and units from various factions fight on various sides (then why have factions printed on the bases) even the books printed on this time frame do not have cross faction units fighting it out. Terra Campbell really needed more mechs in the defense of Northwind, a mech from the SS could have been a big help....

I have actually played games where my infantry ran away from infantry...and how does a puny little light mech hurt my beefy assault mech so badly from a charge?

I LOVE THIS GAME!!!! I will not run from it and as for my new players I try and help them through the hard times...most of my new players return and always they have a good time so I am doing my job....

Warflail.

One other problem is the other overpowered SE

Improved Targeting.

I think this SE, combined with the high attacks we see it on frequently (DF) is a major problem. I have seen experienced players take the field against armies that have IT on everything, and they just know that unless their opponents are rolling so low that a 7 will be a challange, that it is a major disadvantage.

I understand not making the armies perfectly balanced, but the deal with IT is that it is hard to miss with it. when facing an army that almost never misses if just disheartening.

I don't know how you feel, but i feel it is a little problem.

I represent the newer player (only about two months, one month at events), and I have a problem that has yet to be raised.

At present, to have a complete set of tournement legal rules I need:

The basic DA rulebook
The DFA rules
The Liao rules
A twenty page FAQ


What I would like would be a new basic rulebook with up-to-date with the FAQ, and including all the expansion rules (maybe not neccesarily the dropship rules, since they aren't exactly common, but it would be nice).

i don't think WK had the wisdom to see that far in the future to create counters like artillery, transport and vtols. they were going to come out anyway.

but all these "solutions" only make things worse. we now have super charge mechs that still make a large number of mechs useless, vehicles that can now move and shoot with a transport and screwy VTOL rules that are easily exploited. artillery has become a good counter to infantry but it has become a bit too good that it kills just about everything effectively.

WK has solved as many problems as they have created if not more.

One other problem that hasn't really been touched upon is, in my opinion, a rather large flaw in the game. And it happens right off the bat, before the first move is even made. It seems to be, from my experience, that the player who wins initiative at the start of the game gains too much of an advantage.
Granted, the player who gets to go first should be afforded some advantage...namely making the first move. But with all the other nifty problems that have been brought up, the first player may, in the span of three actions:

-Obliterate from usefulness any opposing infiltrators with their SS Balac...
-Lay down 3 AP damage poggage from their 32(!!) point SS AA Artillery, most likely obliterating the usefulness out of the opponents artillery...
-Use their trike squads to base any opposing threats, tying them down for more incoming arty fire in subsequent rounds, all the while gaining VC3...

And the list goes on from there...

Having been involved in the game from launch day as a player and battlemaster, it is fairly disheartening knowing that the outcome of a game could very well hinge on ONE roll of the dice that occurs before play even begins. If I miss an attack roll in battle that costs me a game, then so be it. But losing because I don't get to go first is fairly irritating.

(TrevorTheOkay, you probably get that "vehicles" link because you have spyware installed. Check an anti-spyware site.)

My beef is largely centred on a few things:

1. The huge importance of Attack rating -- since not many things affect or modify it besides formations or hindering (ie. no difference between moving or stationary fire), the gulf between 8-attack-Highlander 'Mech and 10-attack-BR/DF 'Mech is vast. Makes a lot of units quite useless.

2. The production of units that are not just undesirable, they're both unappealing and unplayable. The words "laser battery" leap to mind. And the re-re-released 'mechs in Liao Incursion (bad Crimson Hawks, bad Ullers) combined the redundancy of old models, with an added dose of uselessness in most cases (8 attack!).

3. Some unbalalnced SE -- some too good, some too awful. Anti-Personnel is too strong.

TOO GOOD FOR ITS COST:
Armor Piercing is solid, but it's so common that it makes Heavy/Hardened armour laughable. Reactive armor on infantry is obscenely overpowered. And Anti-Personnel ammo (particularly the multi-target-full-damage provision) is totally unbalanced. Not even to *mention* agility, and Evade when it's on a 'mech. (Oh, hi Arnis.)

TOO BAD FOR ITS COST:
ECM, as we've said. Point Defense -- its cost should be increased relative to Defense Value. Heavy/hardened should be lessened in cost if AP Artillery is everywhere.

And I know this isn't a thread for solutions, but for flavour I really think Artillery should be really crappy unless combined with a Command-equipped unit in the same army.

There's a few of my gripes.

The basics of the original post cover the issues, but (IMHO) miss the specifics of WHY these things are a problem.

As an example, if the designers assume we just hate charging and "nerf" it (to use the common Net term) then it breaks more Mechs than it fixes. I think JinxM was getting at this same point. The Problems are much more specific/precise than listed.

1. Charging another Mech places too much of the game's emphasis into a single die roll. Success = Win. Fail = Lose. Mech's in general should not be so vulnerable to charges, but the mechanic works fine as is vs vehicles and could be extended to infantry without problem.

2. Tankdrop vs a Mech places too much of the game's emphasis into a single die roll. Similar to charging, tankdrop has been minmaxed into the SchmittDrop because it hits nearly everything and does 5 to anything it hits. This makes any mech over 100 points with less than 20 move pretty much inferior. The problem isn't vehicles in Transports--it's transports generating a superior attack at a superior range for fewer points.

3. High damage or Armor Piercing artillery has too many advantages. In combination with pinning tactics, the 3+ (or 2AP) artillery in pairs go far beyond being a supression and anti-camping mechanism and become the be-all of damage. Defense prevents damage: Sorry, useless vs Arty. Defensive SE prevents damage: sorry, useless vs AP arty and of limited value vs 3+ damage. But manuverability can avoid them: sorry, postioning 2 arty properly means you can hit anywhere on the board in a 300 point game and it gets worse as point values increase and you can field more--or I can just pin you with an infantry and the BEST thing that can happen is you can MAYBE successfully run away.

4. VTOLS have too many advantages. In addition to oft-discussed move-shoot, people overlook the value of not being able to be based. All the tactics that evolved for basing threats so you can effectively "screen" your high-point mech from damage go out the window. Flanking goes out the window because move shoot vehicles (and this goes for Tankdrop as well) has eliminated the ability to take advantage of rear arcs with flanking mechs like Pack Hunters. Going along with the inabilty to screen for mechs via basing, you also can't screen for vehicles by placing a less vulnerable piece in the LOF to protect a more vulnerable unit--VTOL LOF is never blocked.

5. Heat cripples mechs. It isn't just a nuisance, it's litterally crippling. The only remotely playable mechs are those with the best heat dials--period. I don't feel at all uncomfortable offering the solution here because it's so obvious--yellow rolls must fail only on a 1. Red rolls on a 1,2. Yellow explosions should do 1. Red explosions 2.

6. WK allows armies not to include a Mech. (Trick problem since the solution is built into the way the problem is worded. ;) )

7. Capturing fresh units is unreasonably easy. Nuff said.

I disagree with the notion that any particular SE is broken, particularly any of those listed. The most valuable SE is Armor Pierce--it would not hurt to make it more randomy or a "damage cannot be reduced below 1" kind of thing, but it isn't necessary if the problems above can be solved creatively without unintentionally solving related issues that aren't truly problems.

WarFlail

In your summarized list of problems don't forget one that has been mentioned several times:

Why can this peasant tie up my assault mech and keep it from shooting something else more threatening?

Also I would like to add to the list a post by a newcomer that I find valuable.
-------------
I represent the newer player (only about two months, one month at events), and I have a problem that has yet to be raised.

At present, to have a complete set of tournement legal rules I need:

The basic DA rulebook
The DFA rules
The Liao rules
A twenty page FAQ
------

I also think that there's a problem in how much a unit can inherently do just 'cause they're a unit.

For 4 or 5 points, a Peasant Company doesn't do much, but since they're a unit they do everything a unit can do: base a more important unit, fire off a minimal shot, capture an Atlas once out of every thirty-six attempts.

For 4 points, a 'Mech might get, at most, an extra point of secondary damage or some ECM special equipment. Is that worth losing a whole other unit from your army?

The point is, "tacticially near-insignificant" units like harrassing Hoverbikes or Peasant Companies give you more for almost no points than anything else.

I suppose this problem boils down to "any unit, no matter how useless, can base and immobilize an enemy unit and perhaps even capture them". And that's too much for a 4pt unit to do.

One problem that has been said by several people is Base Contact. In a fantsay wargame, in wich all the units are of a similar size, I can believe it, but here, where giant robots roam the land, its weak.

Problem n.º1
Using other units as shields.

"Ok, my 100 ton, 30' tall moving building with guns is now close to 5 men with rifles. No other units can shoot me OR the men with the rifles, since I'm hiding behind them"

Problem n.º2
"Ok, I've got 5 men with rifles scurrying around my feet, and I cant shoot that 100 ton tank that has its gun pointed at me, even though I know those men are just going to run away so the tank can shoot at me"

Mechs would be more usefull if they could fire out (and into) base contact - better yet, all units can shoot into base contact. Suddenly Base contact isnt that important anymore.

I use my dasher to keep running between enemy units, using them as shields until I want to charge something - that's just plain wrong

My question is why can Armor Peircing and Anti-personael effect multiple targets while no other weopon SE can? Either make everything be able to be used against as many targets as the unit allows, or all only effective when targeting a single unit (I know A-P would still effect multiple units, but only one group of them)

1. Charging another Mech places too much of the game's emphasis into a single die roll. Success = Win. Fail = Lose. Mech's in general should not be so vulnerable to charges, but the mechanic works fine as is vs vehicles and could be extended to infantry without problem.

2. Tankdrop vs a Mech places too much of the game's emphasis into a single die roll. Similar to charging, tankdrop has been minmaxed into the SchmittDrop because it hits nearly everything and does 5 to anything it hits. This makes any mech over 100 points with less than 20 move pretty much inferior. The problem isn't vehicles in Transports--it's transports generating a superior attack at a superior range for fewer points.

3. High damage or Armor Piercing artillery has too many advantages. In combination with pinning tactics, the 3+ (or 2AP) artillery in pairs go far beyond being a supression and anti-camping mechanism and become the be-all of damage. Defense prevents damage: Sorry, useless vs Arty. Defensive SE prevents damage: sorry, useless vs AP arty and of limited value vs 3+ damage. But manuverability can avoid them: sorry, postioning 2 arty properly means you can hit anywhere on the board in a 300 point game and it gets worse as point values increase and you can field more--or I can just pin you with an infantry and the BEST thing that can happen is you can MAYBE successfully run away.

4. VTOLS have too many advantages. In addition to oft-discussed move-shoot, people overlook the value of not being able to be based. All the tactics that evolved for basing threats so you can effectively "screen" your high-point mech from damage go out the window. Flanking goes out the window because move shoot vehicles (and this goes for Tankdrop as well) has eliminated the ability to take advantage of rear arcs with flanking mechs like Pack Hunters. Going along with the inabilty to screen for mechs via basing, you also can't screen for vehicles by placing a less vulnerable piece in the LOF to protect a more vulnerable unit--VTOL LOF is never blocked.

5. Heat cripples mechs. It isn't just a nuisance, it's litterally crippling. The only remotely playable mechs are those with the best heat dials--period. I don't feel at all uncomfortable offering the solution here because it's so obvious--yellow rolls must fail only on a 1. Red rolls on a 1,2. Yellow explosions should do 1. Red explosions 2.

6. WK allows armies not to include a Mech. (Trick problem since the solution is built into the way the problem is worded. )

7. Capturing fresh units is unreasonably easy. Nuff said.

I disagree with the notion that any particular SE is broken, particularly any of those listed. The most valuable SE is Armor Pierce--it would not hurt to make it more randomy or a "damage cannot be reduced below 1" kind of thing, but it isn't necessary if the problems above can be solved creatively without unintentionally solving related issues that aren't truly problems.
Last edited by NickName on 10/29/2003 at 18:33
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-For problems 1 & 2 You can overcome this by playing cheaper mechs.
-Armor piercing is useless if your opponent doesn’t have any defence SE.
-VTOLs are pretty good but they can’t do anything against a artillery.
-There are mechs with good heat dissipation or would you rather take pushing damage instead.
-Still almost every body fields a mech…
-In MK, five units can partisipate in a Close combat / capture attack.