Because CBT never contradicted it own' "hard facts". :)

-Okay...I think I can buy this argument. Sure, it's a part of the universe. To be specific, it's one possible future of the universe, right?-

MWDA is not a "possible" future but THE CBT FUTURE! As one of the CBT writers said MWDA has the burden of reflecting the CBT universe accurately. Being an Abstract game does not give the right to make all out impossible stunts. Charge and Tank Drop are two of the most worthless features that should not be in the game. Why make novels, the MWDA TRO, and even make MWDA a part of the CBT universe if this game is not going to reflect? Does this game need to be changed? Yes! Charge needs to be fixed and tank drop needs to go. Why? There is no balance in this game. All one has to do to be cheap is field inexpensive units in bulk and that is considered a winning stratagey. Expensive units have no use in this game as they cannot compete with cheap units that equal thier point cost.

Play any other game and you will see how badly this game is right now.

Now MWDA is not CBT? True it is a seperate game. Mechwarrior Third Edition is not CBT either, right? However since both are official BT products and both claim at the start (Wiseman claimed he wanted MWDA to capture the old BT feel that was lost with the introduction of the Clans.) they represent the CBT universe which one actaully does what it claims? I will give you a hint... none of you have played it.

The changing of charge and tank drop would only improve the game.

Ok, MY turn(befor i get started, im NOT flaming anyone or anything like that, im stateing MO about what ppl have said in here)....Barzillai, Sage,Wolf-Nova,Arsenal,and Nick ALL have GREATE points, And some of yall are getting really close to hitting the nail on the head....the thing is(something some ppl want us to miss/ignore) is that this is supposed to be a CONTINUATION of CBT and all it included(even the unseen/reseen mechs) and how the story left off (game time) 80 years ago. This game is PRESENTED as such to all CBT players(myself included) that we can continue the game that is SO........Intreaging........that it has capurted the minds of so many ppl across the globe, and that we can continue to play it in one form or another.
The thing for me is it feels like im playing something-a-rother-GUNDUM(sp?) and THAT pisses me off. I mean look at most of the great mechs we once knew and DREADED...the Atlas, Thunderbolt, Madcat, MaruderII, Longbow, Vulture,Shadow CatII, Packhunter, Panther, and many more. They all LOOK LIKE TRASH (not to mention not holding to the reseen sculpts, weight, weapon loadouts, ranges ect...) The first Un I ever pulled was the blue Atlas, and I was towrn between disgust and the memories of what this thing was capable of. Seriously look at it it looks like a Gundum for crying out loud....
But I digress...the thing that really got me is what barzillai said about scale, and that REALLY scared me...
If that were the case then it is BEYOND disbelief on ALL ranges, movement, charge, ect...it makes no since that i cand charge someone from the other side of a land mas, or even the other side of the globe! THAT IS GUNDUM!!!
That is......j u s t w r o n g...and if WK is thinking that AT ALL, then, well, thats it for the game....
New game system:Yes. New Game:No. If it was, it would be like WK buying CBT out so they can usethe name to make more sales. (Tommy Boy anyone?) {not that i think they are/ have done such} And that is what it feels like, Nick, that you are wanting us to accept, and that isnt right either.
So in closeing, I hope WK does continue to listen to the ppl that are giving them their time and money to support them, and improve on a product that I feel can be an even bigger draw of gamers then they have yet to have because of faulty/broken rules.
(Closeing disclamer: as i said in the intro, i ment no disrespect ot anyone, im just stateing MO, take it or leave it, your choice.)


BTW: I think Evanesence is totally awsome, love the music, lyrics, and think the chic is totally hot....;)

I like Evanescence too. great band.

Wizkids does what they want. FanPro does what they want-hence the different ideas on how to go about things...

How bout a more simple logical answer if I wanted to play a close combat game, I'd play Mageknight. That being said if I wanted to play something unrealistic I'd play heroclix. If I wanted to play with 10 year olds who act like five year olds I'd play creepy freaks.
Bottom line I want to play a ranged combat game where the central component is a 30 meter tall multiton walking tank that blows #### up. Seeing as how whiz kids can't even get the rules to support this I see no reason to buy thier latest expansion.
How many of you will quit the game if the next boondoggle they toss your way is an actual mech with only melee attacks?
________
PARENTING ISSUES FORUMS

It will piss me off if MWDA goes wholesale melee. Odds are if Wizkids keeps spitting in the face of the CBT players then this game will die. Already this game is a farce as many wargamers will not play this game because the cheese in the rules. As many CBT players have said Wizkids managed to take the Mech out of Mechwarrior. This game has no balance and I have never seen this before. When a Darkage player goes onto Warmachines forum and asks "Does numbers equal victory" then we know we have. On average a 300pt army of expensive units cannot take out a a 300pt army of numerically superiour and cheaper units.

I will wait and see but if this game keeps going down hill..well I know when to depart a sinking ship.

From what I've heard, Mageknight is mainly shooting. Maybe all the rules for MK and MW got switched :p

Thank the gods that MWDA is not like BT. I'm a hardcore wargamer going back to the 1970s and I still did not have the patience to learn that one.

Charging is a minor issue for me. I don't like its effect on game play. Without it mechs are toast. I don't know that there would be a single viable mech w/o charging 2x move.

I have been a proponent of the small tweek. Let heavy and hard armor work or increase the damage to the attacker if the charge target is a mech. A whole new group of mechs could be usable with one of these changes.

OR

Give all units a basic move and shoot. 1/2 move and -2 attack. I would let mechs "run" and do 1x move and -2 attack fo a click of heat. I've done one playtest so far and I have not worked out all the details. I would luv to see the heavy tanks back in the game as well.

just to set the record strait, long toms have longer ranges and alpha strike can hit harder

Thank god someone finally posted this. I just wish I could have thought of it first.

Since that is out of the way, I can imaging that MWDA is to CBTers, as the D&D movie was to D&D players.

Ah, a "Nick" thread I haven't jumped in on yet...

Nick, I agree and disagree with you. I agree with you, that they are two completely different systems with the same background and history to them. The history is complex, and I enjoyed reading it in most places, with the exceptions of Delrio and the Grey Death legion books. And obviously I like to play both, otherwise I wouldn't have bought into MW:DA.

However, where I disagree with you is where you state that many claim its not CBT, and to stop mentioning it...

Well, one thing I was noticing is that people weren't yelling that it was worse, but they were using the context of the old system to come up with fixes for charge, not trying to say use the old system. In this manner, I think the template of CBT can be useful as a possible reference material. If one openly says, "That's not how it was done in the good old days!", you have my permission to take them outside and RPS them out fo their misery [;-)]

One of the common ones was let the mech only charge 1.5x instead of 2x its movement. That first renders the Walk/Run movement of the mechs closer to the original CBT style, plus doesn't change mechanics, as we already have a half movement involving APCs.

Now, I know you said you were going to stop discussing the chargemonkey thread, so I will stop now too, only using the above possibility as a reference to what my debate is focused upon.

To summarize, CBT is not MW:DA, but MW:DA can still have some ties to the old game that gave it birth. And on a personal note, I do for some reason dislike the fact that units can outrun the ranges of weapons, but I had that problem back in CBT as well.

The original post pretty much says everything that needed to be said and I came to DA through CBT.

I have to say I most enjoyed watching CBT "purists" arguing with MechWarrior II "purists", MechWarrior 3 "purists", BT3025 and MechWarrior 4 fans about how certain aspects of the BT universe are handled incorrectly in that game.

Personally I enjoyed every one of those games even where the design teams had slightly different interpretations of the universe. They all had the spirit of BT at the core.

Yep, MW isn't CBT. Good thing too. I've played precisely two games of CBT and found it to be ponderous, prone to lots of reference book checks and too filled with pointless record keeping to grab my fancy. Don't get me wrong, the holds true to its in-game rationale and version of reality quite well, and I find the mecha combat theme interesting, but CBT just isn't for me. There's a place for games like it, and I'm certain there are many who enjoy it a great deal, even more than MW -- but it isn't for me.

I prefer the fast pace and simple play of MW. That doesn't mean that I don't have major problems with the way MW models its version of the mecha battlefield -- I do. I wish that ranged combat in MW, like it does in CBT, accounted for 90%+ of the engagements in the game. I wish that close combat, capture attempts, and charges in MW were relegated to rare and desperate ploys like they are in CBT. I wish that VTOLs and Artillery had an important place on the battlefield like they do in CBT and were not the dominant power units they have become in MW. I wish a lot of things -- and unfortunately I'm pretty sure that I'm never going to see all the changes that bring those wishes into line with the MW reality.

I can accept that... I'm not happy about it, but I can accept it.

Optimally, what I'd like to see MW become is a merger of the two systems -- a game with simple rules that plays quickly, but which remains true to the "feel" of mecha combat that CBT and the various computer games that essentially laid the groundwork of what the genre is supposed to be. With the FAQ clarifications and rules modification proposals that are gradually coming out of WK, it looks as if things may be slowly moving in that direction. Would I like it to move in that direction faster? Sure. But I'm a realist and understand that the change, if it is to come (and come in such a way that MW can 'survive') the change will have to be both gradual and incremental.

And that's okay too.

I think the key thing is that there are far too many people out there who have gotten way too emotionally invested in the status quo of either MW or CBT. These are the folks who rant vociferously to anyone about how those that have different views than theirs are absolute heretics -- heretics who must be expunged from the hobby, heretics who are destroying the hobby, heretics who are obvious drooling morons since they don't realize that the proponent's views are the only true way the game should (indeed, MUST) be played. Well, from my perspective, it's fanatics like this that are the true danger to the hobby: as long as we all keep a reasonable dialogue going, the hobby is safe. It's when we stop talking and start driving one another away from the game that the hobby suffers the most.