Warflail,

I'd suggest that instead of LOS for the Charge, make it this:

Charge must be done through front arc, AND in a straight line with LOS.

That gimps charge effectivly. I've been playing it many times and it works. :)

Hmm...

What if Mech had move / shoot. Same heat as a charge. Maybe a -attack modifier.

What if Homing Beacon and any damaging shots were instant kills for VTOLS(Rotor Shot).

...more to come

Simple solution: Make mechs move and shoot capable. 1.5 running. No heat for walking.

Bam.

Problem solved.

First Turn immunity makes sense.

And as much as I like banning Tank Drop in all its forms, and requiring LOS for charging (to add at least some logic to the game!) Im not sure I like taking move and shoot for VTOLs away, as I think otherwise you just have a highly overcosted light tank.



But I think instead of weakening other units we should just make mechs stronger (but Tank Drop still has to go regardless!)

I don't think that these changes would have a huge impact on current game problems (ie. getting mechs back in the game).

1) Does little to impact ATVs and the go first advantage. Encourages more meat shielding. A silly tactic for a futuristic game.

2) Not a bad idea but it ignores TAC/SRM drops which are already more prevalent than their big brother.

3) Getting rid of M&S for VTOLs is not altogether a bad idea on its own. Unfortunately, it would serve just to power up artillery.

4) Makes sense. I don't see charge as much of a problem anymore. The extra damage inflicted on the charging mech is enough to tip the scales against it.

I see the current metagame problems revolving around two army types (seen at nats and now widely copied):

1) BH/ATV army - this sucker uses the nasty ATV and loopholes in the victory rules to win almost 100%. The only way to beat it is to out ATV it. Your changes do not address this army.

2) VTOL swarm - your rules do address VTOLs but not the driving force behind this army: COMMAND. The new command units essentially nullify the switch to 1 order/ 150 points. Thus any cheap units will do to fill in the rest of the swarm. VTOLs are simply the best at the moment.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Warflail, in regards to your thoughts...

1) First turn immunity. For player 1, no attack rolls, no laying of pogs, no SS TAC blasting before player 2 gets a chance to do anything, etc.

This one I happen to agree with wholeheartedly, including the laying of pogs, for one simple reason: The long term of game design. There will be a constant stream of new units, and power gamers are all too fond of abusing inherent game rules like first strike, which, frankly, is what MWDA is all about in the current design paradigm. Take this possible avenue of abuse out of the hands of the players.

As a corollary to this rule, I dare say the designers need to ease up on how fast attack values drop. First strike will always be the name of the game as long as attack values continue to plummet immediately on the dial. All three of the remaining stats represent the machine's failings, as it takes damage, and have less of an impact on the unit's overall effectiveness. The attack value, however, is primarily representative of the people in the unit, and should not fall fast, if at all in trained military units.

This is one of the often overlooked flaws of the game that doesn't just make sense from a fluff perspective. If attack values were stable, even a seriously injured unit could at least do something effective, even if that is only a single point of damage with each hit. After all, that unit already had it's defense, damage and movement neutered. The inability to perform in combat except against other injured units is one of the flaws that need to slowly be corrected via new units in preparation for the inevitable MW 2.0, or at the least set retirement.

2) No tankdrop. Infantry or "towed" vehicles transportable only. The amazing shrinkray technology allowing a Schmitt to be stored in a Maxim all broke down mysteriously overnight. Probably a Word of Blake plot of some sort.

I also agree with this one, to a degree. I think all vehicles being carried in a non-VTOL transport should have to be towed, as you say, and should be legal target of attack. I also think that all non-towed vehicles should gain an action token when they disembark. This should be the advantage of the "towed" keyword. This type of vehicle is made to set up very quick, or to fire from the back of a vehicle towing it. This neuters tank drop as an abusable mechanic. Instead, you'd tow a tank because it's movement is slower then the transports. So salvaged vehicles and severely damaged vehicles would both benefit from being towed. Infantry should work as they do now. I see no problems with infantry drop as it currently functions.

3) VTOLs can popup/shoot/popdown with their movement points. They may not move/shoot or shoot/move. They may absolutely not move/shoot/move. If they are just moving (no attack roll involved) they can move/popup/move/spinaround/jumpdown/pickabaleofcotton/whatever in any order they like.

I don't see a problem with VTOLs. They are able to be worked around with tactics and strategy. Some of them are quite potent, but none completely dominate the game like the old SS Balac when if was able to be healed to full with extreme ease. Those were only as dangerous as they were because they could run away and come back at full strength in a couple of turns while you dealt with another wave of them.

4) Charging requires line of sight at the beginning of the charge.

Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes! This is by far the most important of these rules. If charge had this limitation then charging wouldn't be the first strike option of choice for all mechs, all the time, even with the increased damage. The way charge currently works, even terrain placement isn't an option. A charger with a 9" move can not only outrange every single gun in the game, it can move around the board with unprecedented ease compared to all other forms of mech attacks, even streak missiles or DFA. Whaaa?!? The current charge rules are definitely my biggest problem with mechs at the moment. It not only makes zero sense from a fluff perspective, it also single-handedly makes the largest number mechs in the game non-viable for tournaments. If a mech doesn't have either good charge abilities, good countercharge abilities, or agility, it rarely sees any serious play. This is bad for the game, and how.

Overall, I agree with what you are saying, Warflail. Maybe not to the same degree on everything, but you are definitely correct that the game needs some changes. Not difficult, or complex changes in the rules or the neutering of units, mostly just some simple fine-tuning of the basic mechanics of the game to increase the number of viable units and strategies.

I think that first turn immunity is a must. It's bad enough that those little trikes and ATVs are going to make it into your DZ and lock up VC3 on the first turn, but getting shot for 3-4 damage before you even get to go is adding insult to injury. The current rules are giving a pretty good advantage to player one, making the roll-off much more important. I don't feel that being player one should give an advantage. If FTI is put back in the rules, the only advantage to turn order would be the counting of VC3 points and that could be fixed by counting the VC3 points after both players have taken their turn, but player 1 would still get a point for units that started the turn in the DZ. I think it is unfair that a player can turtle on you in the closing minutes just to gain the edge in VC3. If both players did not finish their turn before the game ends, then the VC3 points do not count for that last round of turns.

I think that making vehicles remain on the battlefield right behind the transport is also a good idea. Everything would work the same as it does now, but you can target the unit being transported. There would still be power present there for the tank drop, but it would make it a little harder to command. I guess you see more charging, but worth it i would say. It would also not offset the point costs of 3cap transports.

I was in disagreement with the arty fix when I first played it at Nationals, but now that I have a dozen or so games with the new rules, I would say that it was a good fix. I was worried that Arty would be totally useless, but it just took some different builds and stategies and now I find Arty to be just as useful, but not overpowered. I think that should bring back stacking damage as well, but I know that will never happen.

Howdo
Ist turn immunity. Yes agreed.
No Tank Drop Yes agreed,Just common sense.
VTOL's No i like em the way they are
other than,SKYHOOK,VTOL's with no
movement points,should go NOE on the
turn they loose last movement point.
If not clear ground,bye bye Vtol,Crash n
burn baby.

Charging Yes Agreed.

Warflail i hope you don't mind me asking a question of CORLE.

CORLE
How does return fire solve Tank Drop,Mech fire weakness
and Vtols'.I Drop 16" firer and shoot at Target with only
14" Range,how does return fire help the TARGET,he can't
Reach me to shoot back.This rule would just encourage
missmatch 16 v 14 ,14 v 12,etc,OR are you ignoring the
printed range values in favor of some other system,which
i missed somewhere along the line,you have my interest.

Mechlube Man

Hi to all...

Well, I had read some interesting ideas here. Thanks Warflail for the tread.

Anyway, I want to add one comment regarding tankdrop: seen to me that WK had not adress the tank drop problem because, without transports, the heavy tanks with minimun range greater than 2" are useless... So, how can I give these tanks a opportunity to be played without use the HATED, INBALANCED tankdrop?. What if any unit (tanks, mechs) could fire below minumun range, but using the rules for indirect fire? i.e: +3 to defense, maximun damage of two, one target. This way the tanks at least can retaliate... Another thing: the default break away for mechs AND vehicles should be 3+. The difference between vehicles and mechs could be the shake off damage... Mechs have it, vehicles not. So, a based tank could have the option of a reasonable break away chance (3+) or indirect fire...

What do you think? With these changes, transports could be limited.. Maybe with a token to the disembarched unit, maybe limiting the units can be towed within...

Of course, this is only my oppinion. Hope you liked it...

BR

Just saw this thread and coincidently a friend and I are going to start using the following rules and see how it goes, most are similar to what Warflail had posted.

1) Targets inside the minimum range may still be fired on but at a +3 mod to their defense.
2) VTOLs may NOT move and shoot, all other VTOL rules are the same.
3) Transports may only carry “zero” movement value or salvaged vehicles or Infantry.
4) Artillery may only place ONE pog when making an artillery attack, multi-target direct fire is normal, readied artillery does NOT take an additional order.
5) Charge/Ram/DFA requires LOS, ie; the target must lie in the normal fire/front arc and may not be concealed by blocking terrain or units. All other normal Special Attack rules apply.
6) Unit placement order is 1212 instead of 1221, ie; player 2 infiltrates last

I believe these rules will have the following effects...
Bring Heavy tanks back into the mix, but not through dropping
Limits VTOLs to their points value (they never paid for the move and shoot business)
Limits Artillery to their points value (they don't pay for multipogging)
Limits Charge and makes manuever more important
The combination of effects makes Mechs stronger and competitive.

In short, I agree strongly with Warflail that these would be good improvements.

By the way I don't think it's a bad game now, I just think it could be better,
with a few changes it could be great again.
S

I didn't read the entire thread ... just the initial few posts. I would further put in "charge distance restricted to 1x movement speed but still is considered a run order".

@Corle. Yes this would probably hand power back to the arty. So .... couple it with 2 things.

a) Artillery blasts do not effect VTOLs at cruising. Honestly this NEVER made much sense to begin with. This brings back the VTOL as a natural arty predator but with Warflails suggestion makes them less useful against mobile targets like mechs/vehicles etc.

b) Keep arty as it is now except you must expend one order PER POG. This is true both for the ready phase and the fire phase on the next turn. So if you want to field 2 SS A4s and alternate-fire them you would have to expend an average of 4 orders per turn. This would make fielding multiple multi-pog arty units so order intensive that even fielding 2 of them would be very difficult and would be far easier to neuter. You wouldn't have to nail the arty itself per se .... you could just go after the command units if they are easier shots.

@hcomp. Right now large tanks like the Behemoth are only useful when they are paired with an APC to drop them. The reason is simple and everyone knows why. Because of the basing rules and min range. In order to make such vehicles useful you have to do one of two things:

a) Allow units to fire out of base.

or

b) Allow units to fire at targets inside min range but at a penalty of some sort.

Personally I wouldn't mind either. If you went with B my thinking is conduct it in a similar fashion to a combo of a direct and an indirect attack. Add a +3 to the targets defense but all SECs on for the attacker apply (IT, AP, etc) and the damage is NOT limited to 2 like an indirect. Let's face it .... if you could fire on a peasant with your Behemoth but it still took you 3 or 4 turns to kill it ... that still doesn't help you much. Those 4-6 points still tied up your tank for a long time and it's quite easy to just bring an extra couple of peasants more than you used to in order to keep that tank tied up indefinitely.

If that sucker deals its FULL damage though ... trying to tie it up with a mere peasant just isn't going to work too well. One shot and it's dead. Period. You can still tie it up with infantry but it's gonna take you considerably more to keep it occupied.

Honestly though I think a merger of the two is needed.

Adopt the above suggestion and also add:

Mechs and vehicles that are based by only opposing infantry may still fire out of base contact but for each opposing infantry unit basing the firer add a +1 to the targets defense value.

Or maybe make it a +2 per infantry basing. *shrugs* This way infantry can base all they want. They aren't going to stop something from firing on something else that's more important ... the shot is just harder to pull off.

Just my $.02

Very interesting topgun505... Something like that is what I was proposing in my post.

Regarding the arty issue, I do not know, but I think that arty had been already nerfed a lot... You know, making some playtesting, I find very difficult manage more that one arty, even more with these fast two mechs + VTOLS that are very common in my area.. I think that if you are going to spend one order by pog + the ready/fire issue, the arty will be pretty useless... Just my thoughs, of course, and based upon my local venue.


BR

first turn immunity: I don't like the idea, its too arbitrary, and there is no explination for why. Reduce first strike? yes, but no blanket immunity.

1)First player infiltrates first.... god what a tough concept.
2)Only speed mode foot can *2 infiltrate (atv's still great, but a given in all games? perhaps not) sprints can still drop on the first turn, but there really isn't a good fix to get rid of sprint drops. (or is there?)

Tank drop:
The more I've thought about it, the less convinced I am that this is a major problem....

VTOL's: only allowed to Move/Shoot or Shoot/Move no Move/Shoot/Move.

Charging: Any change = yes plz

Arty: I dunno... it just shouldn't have been added.

AA: +4 atk vrs vtol's not at NoE w/in 1* range

'Mechs: Give them more range (fire @ 1.5* range w/ -2 atk), so they can actually shoot things, give them the ability to fire out of base, or just not be based by infantry at all. I also like the idea of yellow heat checks being fail only on a one.

Fun thread. But we really should just have a forum for stuff like this w/ each item (vtol's, arty, mechs, drop, aa) having its own thread.

Good, good. Discussion is lovely. I think I'll throw a few thoughts in here myself...

Something to help minimum range tanks is probably a good idea. Since Wizkids has seen fit to keep reprinting the worthless hunks of ####. Which is another beef of mine...

Why must there be lemon units in expansions? I can think of many units where NONE of the variants (regardless of faction) is worth fielding in even semi-competitive play. Wouldnt it be better to have an expansion full of average units, with a few slightly above average and slightly below average units? Instead of expansions with 4 uber units and the rest worthless unplayable ####?

Tankdrop may not be a big deal in hardcore competitive play. But not all play is hardcore competitive. Frankly, I'd guess that the majority of games played anywhere are not hardcore competitive. In most other formats tankdrop is disruptive, limits the number of playable units, adds nothing to the game itself, is annoying, and antagonizes those who want the game to make a bit of sense.

Charging is better than it was, but I think the mechanic still stops people from playing lots of otherwise decent units. Once armies are set and the game starts, there are just too few ways to protect a charge vulnerable mech. Maybe if hills and rooftops were allowed in standard play.

Since most feel VTOLs and artillery are linked as an issue, I'll leave both alone for now to avoid muddying the water.

For those that dont like first turn immunity, how about roll to determine deployment order. Then deploy. Then roll to see who is player 1? Makes mega-infiltratrion much riskier, with a 50/50 chance that he gets to go first and blasts your infiltrators to ####. Actually... bleh, that wouldnt help vs Sprintdrop as theyre so fast they can still deploy out of return fire range and infiltrate far enough to TACblast things. ####, why did they invent the BR Sprint anyway? It isnt like people have been bellowing "be ####ing careful about what infiltrate units you make Wizkids" since FFE.