Jag, you seem to be disagreeing with me, but I think we are sort of on the same page.

Yeah...I realized that after I posted and read over what you said again.

If anybody is looking for these, they are all over around here....at least they were a few weeks ago. I've only seen them in the same areas as you find Trivial Pursuit, Candyland, and Monopoly. I never had any interest in it, and after reading some of the posts, I just kind of peeked at it. I even looked at the terrain stuff, since everybody was talking about it.

All I'll say is that I still haven't bought any....and that should speak volumes. ChaimWitz will blow money on all sorts of stuff. :eek:

Barronmore,

From what you’ve posted, in order to make MK figs a whole lot cheaper than Heroscape figs you must be lucky, “buy smart” (a contradiction in itself: gambling is never a smart buy), and engage in reselling. If you base the value of something on its ability to be re-sold, then you are talking about an investment. You may claim it’s not, but buy low, sell high is practically the definition of investment, no matter what you say.

At any rate I don’t think that’s a sustainable model. It’s too much like a pyramid scheme – lots of people spend at the bottom, a few make money (or in this case, break even and “support their hobby”) at the top. People wise up to such schemes pretty quickly, and the whole thing comes down.

It’s why the rules matter. A good game will get gamers to spend their money without having to become retailers/speculators themselves. M:tG is a good example. People do speculate in it, but it is sustained by people who buy the cards to play. WotC seems to know that, so they invest heavily in making sure the rules work and game play is great.

Touting the “value” of MK based on “smart buying” and re-selling begs the question of why it’s an issue at all. A good game doesn’t need to have the customer do all sorts of financial gyrations to see paying money for it as worthwhile. If WK wants MK to become valuable again they should make sure the game (ie, the rules) make it worthwhile to play.

Time will tell if Heroscape ends up being a good value – the play will determine that. But however that turns out, right now the retail customer who just buys to play and doesn’t see buying a game as a business opportunity (probably 99% of the folks who buy games), seems to get more plastic for their dollar out of Heroscape than MK.

Barronmore, and everyone else who feels that everyone can get pay for their hobby by just buying a case and selling off what they don't want:

if everyone bought a case, wouldn't that flood the market and create less demand for figs, since everyone had most of them? Be kinda hard to make your money back on a case then, wouldn't it?

Hello all, haven't posted here in a while, but I just couldn't pass this discussion up.

I've found what I think is the best value for my money in gaming and it isn't MK or Warhammer, though it is a GW game. The pdf for the new rules for Mordheim are FREE on the mordheim home page. Yes, it's big file. Furthermore, you can play Mordheim with your MK figs. Suddenly you have a cool, balanced (well, more than mk) game which costs you nothing, unless you want to play in tournaments. You can pick up a viable Mordheim warband for 30-40 bucks. Everything you need in a box.

That's just me.

I also know that the rules for the Black Orc games "Hundred Kingdoms" is also free online.

Two games. No cost. One skirmish, and one mass battle. You can use all your current figs and who knows... you might find a new hobby painting stuff and building terrain.

Beyond money, I've found that you can't express your hobby in monetary terms alone. If you are planning your solvency based on your figures and the value of them to cost, then you are pretty much on the losing end of that proposition, I don't care if you are able to sell off all the chaff. You've still got to invest time and money which at the time cannot be diverted to soemthing else. In addition there is always the risk that you can't make it turn for you. Play it because you like it, not because it is profitable or even if you are going to break even.

jmo,
guac.

Mordheim rocks, it's true.

Discussing the merits of a game based on its resell possibilities is eeire and frightening to me. Only a collectible makes such a discussion possible. But what do I know, I'm just in it for the fun of gaming and of course the rules. I know in the computer world that its the games that sell the system and not the other way round. So I agree with Balduran I re/ the rules argument.

you fellows obviously arn't listening to what I'm even saying.

I'm not making the case that MK is better then Heroscape. I'm not making the case that Colectable is better then knowing what you get. I'm saying that the 'evils' of collectablity are not as evil as everyone is saying and the fact is is collectable LOWERS the cost of the game...which it does.

My gosh, you fellows are trying to demonize me for pointing out what collectable games do. No, you don't have to resale them, no you don't have to be lucky and yes, you should buy smart! But you should by Heroscape smartly too! Look, why pay $20.00 - $30.00 for Heroscape on Ebay when you can buy prodcut directly on Heroscapes website or speical order it through your FLGS.

I DO NOT INVEST IN THIS GAME! Becuse I buy boosters and sell/trade off what i don't need is not an investment and it sure isn't "resaleing" in the terms your using. It's what people have always done in Collectable games. It's what they advertise you can do. If I bought for the direct purpose of selling TO MAKE A PROFIT then I would be investing. I do not. I just know how to get the value out of it.

Redtiger7.

Yes, if everyone did buy a case and sell of what the don't need you could flood the market. Yet, I've found the opposite to be true. More people have been buying cases nad selling of the extras and yet, I've actually been MAKING more profit from selling even though I'm selling less figures. I'll admit, it's the chase figures.

I actually do check the market every expansion to see if I can still 'afford' to be in this game. There will come a time that I cannot "afford" to be in it anymore. When that happens, it happens. I'm not stressing over it.

<side note>
Does WotC get this kind of abuse with D&D, SWM, or M:tg?

Look, the point is, don't mock the game because you don't like it's distribution mode. A game is more then just it's set of rules. Part of it is cost. Collectability lowers the cost of the overall product. Does it have it's drawbacks? Yes, it does. But it has it's advantages. No one forces you to buy MK, just like no one forces me to buy Heroscape. It's your progative. I find I CANNOT afford Heroscape and that I CAN afford MK. I can afford MK because of it's collectable aspect...no matter how you want to put it. So, I can get lucky, so I shop smart (why would I pay more for something that I can get for less, all things considered equal), and so I can trade for what I need.

What's the problem with that?

WM is cheaper than 99.9% of GW stuff. A Jack costs any where from 20-30.00 an dit is all metal. th enew plastic dreadnought costs 30.00. You can also buy a box set for 30.00 or so and get a ton more than GW. The investment in WM is a lot less and honestly is less than a lot of other games.

Hate to say it but you can buy that one Dreadnought, or 10 Space Marines, or 20 Imperial Guard, GW marks their prices up; that is a fact, but some of them aren't to bad. Normally it is just the tanks that are crazy. And their main lines are cranked up. I've only seend Warmachine a few times, and it is what a 30mm-35mm scale while Inquistor is a 54mm scale and all of their firgures are $25-$30. And as crazy as it sounds to some folks, GW supports their games really well. There are a ton of rule varations for the basic 40K and Fantasy.

If you want cheap minis, look no further then Reaper. Very cheap and very nice looking minis.

Barronmore,

Nobody’s demonizing you. Just arguing with what you claim are facts. Being collectable in no way lowers the cost of the game. It used to be said that random packaging made it cheaper because of the reduced number of SKUs. But that may no longer be true when non-collectable pre-paints (ala Heroscape) are now being offered for practically the same price as collectable.

Anyway, your point has nothing to do with that. According to your posts, the way collectability lowers cost is if you resell (you buy then turn around and sell), figs for more than you paid for them. It’s you saying that, not me.

You could argue the same about non-colletctables, saying that GW games are cheaper if you buy two sets, paint up one of them and sell it to pay for the other set. (Painted figs sell for more than the cost of the figs + paint… unless I paint them, of course.) In which case you’d also be a reseller. A classic value add reseller, but reseller none the less.

Only with collectables you play the market and the odds, buying enough to get the chase figs that will be worth more than you paid. Your value add in that case is taking the buying risk to get what others aren’t willing to shell out the cash for – enough boosters to get the rare.

Either way it’s an investment, and you’re a reseller! You’re working or assuming risk to increase the value of something to someone else.

Sheesh… investing is not bad! Smart people do it all the time.

But your facts are just flat out wrong in the idea that EVERYONE IN THE HOBBY CAN AND WILL DO IT TOO, THEREFORE THE COSTS ARE LOWER FOR THAT HOBBY. That’s just not true. In fact, it can’t be true – it’s a zero sum game. There are only so many people buying figs. If EVERYONE is selling chase figs (or custom painted figs for that matter), then either NO ONE is buying them or you’re simply swapping money with everyone else. In either case you will not be able to offset your cost of getting them in the first place. You won’t make any money, and the hobby won’t “pay for itself.”

That’s why your whole premise is BS – it doesn’t translate into anything the vast majority of folks buying the game can or will do. So to say that your situation (invest and resell) means that “collectability makes it cheaper” is hogwash. Of course it’s cheaper to have a hobby if you work it to make money. So what? That’s nothing to do with it being collectable – any hobbiest can put enough effort/risk into their hobby and turn around and sell it to other hobbiests.

You have entirely missed the point of the other two statements.

Collectable games make the game less expensive because it introduces a secondary market into the game. This is not player reselling figs either. It's retailers that do that. Retailers can break down a case of MK and sell off the uber uniques for big bucks and sell the non's for much lower then the $1.60 a fig figure. Some do, some don't. That's why you have to shop around.

Aslo there is the trade factor. I can buy less collectable boosters and trade what factions I don't play to get more of the faction I do play. In the long run, I pay less per fig then by buying the booster and paying the $1.60 per fig.

If I buy Heroscape boosters, I pay a flat $12.99 for the booster. No retailer will break it down because the peices have no value other then as a booster.

I resale my extra MK because money is the universal trade medium. I find it easer to just sell off what I don't need and use the money to buy what I want. There is not an open trade market for the MK/Reaper conversion. It doesn't happen. Or I can just sell my uber fig and use that money to buy all the other figs I've been wanting. It is a form of trade, espeically for those of us in areas without a venue. Sometimes I get some extra money out of it to boot...which usually goes for all those other games I want...maybe even a set of Heroscape come April. :)

As for everyone doing it or not doing it...that's there choice. But the cost of the hobby is lower because retailers have a way of recouping their money on multiple paths. They sell single figs, we buy those single figs for the market price. For the majority of pieces, market price is lower then the medium price from the booster, epseically the longer you go from the boosters release date.

Anyway, I think we are at an impass. You have your oppinion, I have mine. Let people decide what works for them. I perfer the Collectalbe methods for the reasons I've stated. But I sure do understand the reason you state as well. There is a trade off in it. People just have to decide which trade off they like better. Diffrecne of oppinion...which is not a bad thing.

Warmachine is actually closer to the 25-28mm range. The problem is that many of the 'jacks and troops are considerably larger than people, so it looks like the whole thing is 30-35mm range. But take a look at some of the warcasters (Denehgra in particular), and they are tiny compared to GWs "heroic 28mm" stuff (which is basically 30-32mm anymore).

I second that. Reaper's new Warlord line has some very nice figs (like the Reptus warlord!), and the game (Warlord) is pretty decent too.

The Rabbidgerbal isn't completely with you on the whole secondary market thing. The point is you must somehow deal *WITH* the secondary market to either recoupe your initial costs or hunt down your figures at a lower single price.

They are in essence creating a false scarcity with the collectable angle. While they have a right to make money the Frothing One goes back to the idea that it's a bit cheezy, if not boardering on privateering. (the topic of the origonal post)

Now, this isn't to say that the Frothing One has never traded or got a deal in the secondary market (moreover a good deal a couple of times) it's just the point of the odd artifical nature of the scarcity.

Perhaps its like diamonds... in reality they are not that rare, yet with a few families controling the main mines those folks carefully control the supplies to up the costs.

If one was just a casual gamer getting a game it makes it nearly impossible to get what you like without buying by the case, and the premium retial. (If you don't go secondary market and trading your against the wall)

getting into warlrod now and with a local shop doing a buy one get one free on reaper minis it works.

As far as the one dreadnaught, 10 SM and such well the squads run closer to 20-30 bucs a box set right now. To get the same in WM is still cheaper than GW.

Inquisitor si differnet in that you buy fewer models. If yo uplay some of GW other games such as bloodbowl or the skirmish level ones then you are a looking at a lower investment.

GW's markup is still higher than PP or any other company (Rack Ham may be close though)