Thats nice to know...if you look at my first post I actually put her +1 into the damg. Hopefully when the full rules come out more of this will clear up.

Yes.. but the more I read the rules, the more I think aces only count if the attack is successful.

let's walk step by step through this, creating a flow-chart like a computer.

4. Roll the dice. Attacker rolls for attack, defender for dodge.

5) Check for bad Karma. Attacker removes any dice that show the same number, other than aces. Fail Condition: If there are no dice remaining, the attack fails.

6) Check for aces. Aces are set aside, and are considered 0 on attack rolls.

7) Determine final attack and defense values: Add the remaining dice totals. Attack is added together, defense is rolled together.

8) Compare results: if the new attack is higher than the defense, the attack succeeds. Fail Condition: if the new attack is lower than the defense, the target is not hit. (now, in most people's books, not hit = fails, no? --Ath)

9) Check shields / 10) Remove shields: Do not affect aces, but remove 1 dice for same-colored shields, 1 for 1.

11) Calculate damage: A successful attack does 1 click of damage that remains after shields have been used. [i](this is the important part -- aces are still considered dice, and we have already had 2 failsafes. To say aces ignore the attack/defense roll would break the game, but that is simply my opinion. --Ath)

12) Determine Ace Effects (note nothing in this section refers to damage, except that saying aces add damage as normal, in addition to ace effects).. Apply ace effects.

13) Assign damage.

------------------

Now, in my mind, everything after compare results was dependant on a successful attack roll. If you see otherwise, so be it.. but at this point, I will post this for official ruling on the SR board. We may not get the answer until after the official figs are out, but that is of no consequence to me.

Athenor

Edit: BTW, with this reasoning, an ace'd red dice would do 3 damage for Kellan Colt or Lothan -- 1 for being a successful dice, 1 for being a major mojo, 1 for being her aptitude (would only apply once per attack). Considering that Lothan has +1 red as well, I can see why their hands are glowing red. =)

i personally think the blue aces are gonna be the back breakers. you get a character with a good attack and pop a stun attack on somebody, then hit them hard with whoever is left on your squad since there dodge pool has gone bye bye.

i have a feeling when actual play starts, i'm gonna be leaning towards those little blue and black dice . . .

and i agree, the ace part of the rules is probably going to be revised in the final version of the rules. i mean, it doesn't make any sense to take a shot at someone 12 inches away and miss them, yet still cause 2 damage and break their cyberdeck.

Athenor,

Well, you didn't quite state #12 as written. when you get to step #12 it states 'All aces rolled do 1 point of damage + their ace effect'. That and the fact that removing the ace dice and setting them aside for later come before the determine if you hit step, and then Ace effects is placed on its phase makes resolution of battle have no effect on whether the aces work or not. The only condition that failed was whether the attack was greater the the defense. The conditions that pass are 6 - Aces were rolled, then 12 Aces cause their damage. No where in this do aces affect the ability to hit or cause damage because you hit. The aces are resolved outside of the to hit loop.

Swan

Blue is good if you and hit them first go 2nd and hit does not matter if they drop there dice. cause round is over and both players pick up there dice again. Now if you have a bunch of guys yeah maybe.

So again...who cares if I hit or not, as long as I get them sweet sweet d4s....


Man, I never thought I would EVER say that....:confused:

Your consensus is not shared on the WK forums.. however, I have already posted a thread over there on this.

I would like to point out: I will not play, nor support a game in which you succed in doing 2 points of damage, per dice, 25% of the time, regardless of what your opponent does to fight it. Unless the playtesters are aware of a ruling I am not, then this makes absolutely no sense.

Also, swan, you mis-quoted as well.

All and Every are interchangable, perhaps. Still, this fall as part of the attack, not seperate.

Athenor

Well I didn't have the rule book in front of me, but it was still a far cry closer then saying "note nothing in this section refers to damage, except that saying aces add damage as normal, in addition to ace effects". And never has anyone disagreed that the ace is not part of the attack, only in the fact that the aces are determined seperate from the attack/defense part of the equation.

Athenor,

By your suggestion I went to the Wizkids forum to see what they have to say. I find exactly 2 people even commenting on the subject and though they both agree with how you feel it works I find that 2 people makes for a pretty shallow consensus. Add to this that neither one of the two giving their oppinion are affiliated with WizKids, nor was there any mention that either playtested the game I think that we have a larger more informed consensus in this forum atthe moment. When and if WizKids errata's the rules to your liking, then we will all happily play them that way.

Swan

There are only 2 people here arguing FOR it, and honestly, they are just rules lawyers. If you miss, combat is over, you never get to step 12. If you miss, you cannot effect the target. If every single red ace meant 2 clicks of unblockable damage, with a 25% chance to score one a D4, how is that balanced?

thanks, sagan.

But there are more people using this thread then the WizKids one, which makes this forum a better place to debate the question. As for being a rules lawyer, not my fault that I play by the letter of the written rule. Playing by interpretation leads to playing several different games (though they all have the same name) depending where you go to play. I have never stated that it is right or that I agree with how the rules were written, I only pointed out that by the way they are written, whether or not the attack hits, the RULES state that every ace rolled does a damage. Looking at some of the dice that can be used (such as Kyushi with a single green d6) without the ace rule her sniper rifle its pretty much useless. The rules do not have to make sense to use them, but they are the rules.

Well, when my friend and I played, if you missed (your combined Attack was less than their combined Defence) the attack missed, and you stop combat. Aces wouldn't matter at that point anymore. IMO, aces are nice because they can do extra stuff as well as add to damage, but they also decrease your attack value. It seems like a balanced thing to me. Woulnd't be so if aces always had an effect. "You missed but still do 4 damage and take all my dice away?!" That isn't right... Won't keep me from getting at least one more figure with this being ambiguous, because it will be resolved in the final rules. :)

Even if it isn't, I'll be playing by your run of the mill WK "If you miss, you miss, haha!" rules... so myeh. Sorry, thump and Swan, but I really have to disagree with you.

Also: Kellan vs. Kellan over and over again gets boring reeeeal fast. It was fun playing once or twice, though.

I agree completely with Athenor and the others that say that if the attack doesn't succeed then aces do not count. Otherwise the aces would be too powerful. Since they are not effected by shields or bad karma and produce special effects I would think that the game designers would want them to be difficult to achieve. It plainly states in both the promo and the prerelease rules that aces always count as zero. Thus rolling an ace makes it more difficult to hit. It also seems logical to me that you can only get the special results from an ace if the attack succeeds. It would unbalance the game way too much if aces always hit. It also makes d4s way too powerful since there's a lot higher probability you'll get an ace with one. Why use a d6 or a d8 when you could use a bunch of d4s. Why would Kyushi's rifle which gives a d10 be worth 5 slots while Kellan's stun rod which does a blue d4 and a yellow d4 be worth only 2 slots? I have always played such that you have to make a successful attack roll in order for aces to have an effect and I always will. Just my 2 cents.

Later,

Raven