Thanks! ;)

I think you are mistaken. It was not 1.0 or 2.0 that killed the game, it was poor business practices by Wizkids. Look at the 'envoy' argument on this thread and you will see one poor business practice. A second was not allowing players to play with figures they bought in the monthly campaigns (titans/Dragons/Castles, etc). a third poor business practice was abandoning the early 'wargame' aspects for the game in favor of the 'cgg' aspects that became previlant at the end of 1.0. WK never understood what they had in MK or why the player base eventually erroded. Once Jordan Wiesman stated he couldn't beleive that people were paying this much for little plastic toys the entire focus of MK shifted to the sales of little plastic toys. I don't ever think it really occured to the WK brass that the reason MK was so popular was that it offered an easy entry into the wargame hobby while still giving you a REAL wargame.

If 1.0/2.0 was a poor product that the market regulated out of exsistance, then why is MW/HC still around? Both MW/HC/MK share enough common elements that if the core problem was the game design then the entire clix concept should have been regulated out the market by now. The concept of MK was sound and it was (and still is) a great game. It's just that WK horribly mismanaged MK and was never able to resurrect the product to it's former glory.

Most of the MW WK staff was sacked a few months ago. They were replaced a few weeks ago.

The new staff admitted that MW sales are down and the game needs to make some large changes (set retirement is over).

HC
I'm still shocked that anyone wants a 15th Superman version.

Stay tuned, WK as a company owned by TOPPS will not exist much past a year.

Yes, but is this because the game has serious problems or because WK has poor business practices pertaining to the running of the MW franchise?

People want a 15th edition of spider man because they want the fig, they like the game, and they love comics. WK has also had the LEAST direct involvement with HC. Personally, I'm suprised the game is doing as well as it is too...but it's the only one of the 3 franchises I have not heard massive player complaints about. It's also (I beleive) the least supported of the 'big three'.

Coincidence?

Three things killed Mage Knight:

1. Topps
2. Topps
3. Topps

This contingency may yet prove to be the downfall of WK as a company. Topps is the reason the card element was introduced and why a primarily fantasy entertainment franchise ventured into the realm of sports with games that failed miserably. With corporate policies from the parent company in effect, WK was made to cut creative corners in persuit of higher profits. Failing that, Topps has now geared up to sell WK off to the highest bidder. Jordan Weisman is helming other projects for a different company that he apparently also founded. The revamping of MK was designed to promote sales, as directed by Topps, and the effort backfired. Loyal customers and dedicated players were insulted enough to quit, and too few new players were enticed by the rapid overcomplication of the game itself. Having been a completely original high concept, MK never had the the big-name licenses that HC does (and in spite of that aspect, Topps nearly managed to kill off that game as well - their poison is still tainting competitive play). MW survives on having just enough competition junkies and a decent enough fan base from the video games. Pirates stays afloat on the appeal generated by the recent films. MK only ever had MK fans and a smattering of LOTR bandwagoners, and there was little that could be done to mend the wounds that Topps inflicted.

Now, though, there are folks like the author and myself who are finding the buyer's market suitable to finally quell our curiosity about what was and remains a solid, fun game with an ample amount of beautifully detailed toys. I'll talk smack on Topps to no end - Wizkids' partnership with them was the worst business move they ever made period. But there's little doubt that the games, characters, player community, and innovation generated up there near Seattle were the result of sheer brilliance. The legacy may come to a tumultuous end, but will also inspire legends.

Interesting discussion. Putting on my "moderator" hat, I have to applaud everyone for keeping the discussion civil, dispite disagreements (and maybe even personal dislikes of each other). Keep it up, it's what will make this forum great.


Personally, I don't agree with the "first strike" being a flaw of clix dials. Almost any clix player with experience knows how to build an army such that first strike in that regard is something that doesn't detriment one too much. That is why in many cases, "big-fig" armies aren't very good; one lucky hit can really throw it down the toilet.

An UNcarefully planned army CAN be harmed by a first strike. However, that's not a flaw of the game, rather it's a flaw of the planning. Every game, especially collectible ones, have that in some form or another. Take HeroScape for example. If you build an army that is hard to maneuver, a "weaker" army that CAN maneuve could clean you out, easily. If you are too range-centric, there are many ways that it could be negated. In that game, sometimes Initiative can be the deciding factor, but a carefully planned army and in-game maneuvering will mitigate that quite a bit.


What the root cause of the demise of MK altogether is a matter of speculation only. Yes, sales were down. But what is only conjecture is what CAUSED that. I don't think it's really even possible to accurately find out, as all you can really say is people stopped buying the game. The question is why. And there are probably multiple reasons. Some Envoys may have been disenchanted with the way they felt they were treated (and some may have been justified; I don't know, because I never felt I was treated poorly, but I can only speak from MY experience). Some players may have not liked set retirement (I didn't at first, either. I don't mind it now, though I don't mind playing unrestricted either; to me, I'm indifferent). Some may not have liked the LEs. The list goes on. One could point to WK and their practices being the root cause. This could very well be true, as that's what drives everything else. However, even that "root cause" has a deeper root cause, one that may not even be determinable.

In essense, what I'm saying is, we know the game died off. I find it unfortunate, as I've yet to find any collectible game that grips me the way MK did. (By collectible, I mean ANY game that you can expand your forces, be it randomly like MK, or "knowingly" like HeroScape or WARMACHINE). To me, none of the other similar games holds a candle to this one. Others disagree; some like WARMACHINE, some like HeroScape more (I like HeroScape, but not "more" than MK). Some may have just gotten tired of the whole collectible scene altogether.

That is why I continue to support MK. That is why I keep playing it. Yet I know that not everyone shares that sentiment.


And for what it's worth, in my post above about some of the issues with the Envoy program that warranted change, I hope my intent came across: I wasn't trying to say that everything was the Envoys' faults, even the "greedy" ones. It's only one piece of a larger picture. However, the Envoys who were honestly trying to do the right thing, even those who became jaded for whatever reason, were NOT the cause. It was those that were trying to exploit the system that were the cause of THAT particular issue :)

Things were going along just fine with MK and then WK pulls the plug. WK (Goddard) must have known for months that sales were going down. I don't understand why the "new 2.0" elements of MK were introduced into MW AOD (1.5)? Take a look at MWREALMS sometime. Traffic is down and for the first time WK is saying that sales are down (thanks to the new management). Something big (besides set retirement being lifted) is going to change with MW. I don't know if MW will have as much notice as MK did that the game is being dropped by MK.

This type of discussion would have been squashed several years ago. The realms have become a lot more lienent since combining all the different sites. As long as the words used are "G" rated, I think this is great.

The secondary market value of all WK LE's dropping has really helped the abuse of the envoy system. Why go through all the effort to get stuff that is worthless.

I think that TOPPS has a new objective with WK. Make the company worth as much as possible and then sell it (Jordan must be laughing all the way from the bank for his sale of WK for $28 Million). Great move sir.

MK needs a "support" like D&D (the RPG game and movie), Hero Clix (Comics), Star Wars (movies) and another games have. These games have "stealed" MK player's attention (and sales).

I think that it is TOPPS focus at moment. A game, a RPG, and more sources that bring new players to the "Mage Knight's World".

And after a few years, bringing back the Miniatures Game will be more easly than admin actual sales.

Nonsense. The problems those discussions had were always that certain groups became very confrontational, insulting, or instigatory in their presentation of "facts." We don't have much of that here anymore.

I wouldn't be suprised to see Mage Knight return in some form in the future (although not necessarily miniatures). It's become clear that licensing issues have been a major problem with some of WizKids game lines. They own Mage Knight completely. So, I can see them definitely deciding to reintroduce a game using the Mage Knight license at some time.

The biggest problem, though, is that the hobby game market isn't very healthy right now. New games have a very hard time catching on.

I find it the opposite - there's plenty of players around and games still sell as well as they ever did locally, just not Wizkids games.


At this point I think the MK lisence is nearly worthless:

IMO Wizkids can't lauch MK again in miniatures form
- They haven't fixed some of the reasons the last game died.
- There's a too many great games around that aren't all that different than MK.
- The death of MK has left a stench of failure on Wizkids that hasn't yet worn off (Horrorclix is set to implode here because of it).

Any other spin off game is even more unlikely to succeed - Does anyone really think that the RPG isn't going straight to the bargain bin (if it even gets printed in the first place)?

An MK CCG makes me giggle.

Novels, Comics ..... tried them and failed.

The video games started production when MK was actually alive - the game makers are putting on brave faces but they're likely kicking themselves for buying into MK in the first place. Surprised they didn't sue Wizkids over this whole mess.

The MK lisence is worth about as much as the creepy freak lisence at this point. Little to nothing.

I totally agree. There are so few folks on these boards anymore to even talk with.

Well then, lets keep em alive! I'm sorry, but I just can't let go of a franchise that revolutionized table top gaming. And as far as the markets being down, I'm unsure. I touched on this briefly in an economics project I did for excelsior, just prior to my coming back to the MK scene a few months ago. Summarily, the internet has lowered prices to the point that virtually anyone can begin playing table top games for a fraction of the cash it used to cost. This has increased potential customer base. UNfortunately, the same internet revolution has lead to the decline of local venues, the public face of such games. As such, fewer people find out about the games, and so a disproportionate amount of potential customer base is removed, and the most fundamental level. If people don't know the game exists, or have local venues to teach them, why on earth would they start buying figs on the internet, dirt cheap or not?

Another critique of the table tob scene I'd like to make here, just to see whom agrees with me, is the complete lack of support from local stores for virtually anything. When I was a kid, the comic book shops had a stack of regulars in them sitting at various tables, playing this or that. Card games, miniatures etc. I got hooked as far back as I can recall watching warhammer be played at two of my local shops. If you had a question about a game that the owner didn't know, he could at least direct you to "Petey the Pirate" or some other regular that would be more than happy to go over it in depth.

There were lots of permanent tables etc for people to utilize. One of them even double dipped and sold coffee and what-not to the folks haning out, so even if they weren't spending money on figs or comics, they were spending cash on caffiene. Nowadays, I haven't found a shop that I've actually enjoyed going into for YEARS. At best, a shop will take down some tables from time to time to demo a product for a few weeks, then will curse it's failure, put them back up to not see the light of day again for a few months until another "get rich quick" product comes along. At which point, it's promptly sabataged and then thrown away; rinse and repeat.

Don't misunderstand me. My cousin opened up his own comic book shop about 15 years ago, lasted only for 4 years and then had to close up shop. I've been on the inside of what it's like trying to run a venue. What shot him in the foot, like so many other shops I've seen was having a shop that was simply too small to host anything in. One thing I've meant to ask for years is where is the federal law that dictates a comic book/hobby game shop has to be crammed into a space measuring no larger than a bathroom stall at a reststop?