well i tried this move in a PCQy, my wolvie got smacked , there was no one behind him, so i moved him to the soppurt row, adjecent to a charachter, and i tred to reiforce, judge said no.

Well, the difference is that the reinforcement via exhaustion requires you to have priority to apply it, which you don't have when you're moving Wolverine. Superman's effect, however, is continuous and automatically goes into effect around the same time. That's why it's confusing.

I think the simultaneity causes a lot of the issue here. The best analog I can think of here is the recovery of a stunned 7-drop Magneto not interrupting the recovery of other characters in the wrap-up because they occur simultaneously. I guess the precedent is set so that continuous modifiers do not begin to be applied when simultaneously occuring effects might cause it to apply. That logic allows Magneto to function as he does now, and explains the Superman / Wolverine interaction. It doesn't work how I'd like, though, but those are the breaks sometimes.

The best analog I can think of here is the recovery of a stunned 7-drop Magneto not interrupting the recovery of other characters in the wrap-up because they occur simultaneously.

Good point.

Interesting, that does have similar implications. If that is the case then I guess my first assumption is correct and each action starts at the same time and finishes at the same time so the results of those events cannot be applied to each other event.

The only thing is that they don't specify that the wrap-up actions all take place at the same time and they do specify that no one gets priority "while these actions are taking place or between these actions taking place."

The only thing is that they don't specify that the wrap-up actions all take place at the same time

Actually...

Once both players pass on an empty chain, the attack concludes. This is referred to as the "attack conclusion." All events during the attack conclusion happen simultaneously.

I think the Magneto example shows a clear precedent in this case.

But just the same, I'll wait for a netrep to wave their magic wand over this one.

Once both players pass on an empty chain, the attack concludes. This is referred to as the "attack conclusion." All events during the attack conclusion happen simultaneously.

This is referring to the attack conclusion, not the recovery phase wrapup.

Well now I'm confused...I'm sure you know that...

Each player then simultaneously recovers his or her chosen character.

So which events are you saying aren't specified as being simultaneous?



If you open a door at exactly the same time as you lock it, did you open the door? If you didn't, then how could you have opened the door at exactly the same time as you locked it?

And they said philosophy had no practical application...

I'm just saying that they don't use an all encompassing statement like "all actions in the recovery phase take place simultaneously" like they do with the attack conclusion.

You're right though in that I missed the part where they referred to recovering the characters as being simultaneous, so I guess that applies then if we go with how Magneto 7 is played.

I don't have the comprehensive rules and/or FAQ on me ... but isn't it that, for the case of Green Goblin 5-drop ... that a stunned character is considered to be unprotected?

If that is the case, then:

If Wolverine 5-drop can 'gain' the reinforced status before BEL is dealt by being moved behind Superman 6-drop [which occurs when he is stunned].

THEN ...

Anyone who is protected by Superman 6-drop, and is stunned would lose protected status and thus lose reinforced status before BEL is dealt and would receive breakthrough.

Thus being protected by 6-drop Superman would only allow you to use say ... Tag Team or Face the Master, but not actually gain the normal benefit of being reinforced since they would still take BEL.

This isn't how it works though. All the actions in the attack conclusion happen simultaneously so the stun, BEL, loss of protected status and associatively the loss of reinforcement happens all at the same time, but none happens before the other.

Are you saying this to illustrate how it doesn't make sense for Wolverine to gain the reinforced status and avoid BEL? Because that is how it is coming out.

I'm pretty sure that's what he's doing, and it's a nice new angle to come at the issue from.

The top of our simultaneous list is the stunning of the defender, or moving Wolverine if you replace the stun; the problem that we've come up against, then, is whether or not the results of one simultaneous action can affect the others. Let's assume for a second that moving behind Superman, becoming protected, allows you to stop breakthrough endurance loss in our scenario.

If that's the case, then being stunned (which means losing both the protected characteristic and the defender characteristic) would allow breakthrough endurance loss in the more traditional scenario where Lois Lane hides behind Kal-El.

We know that the second scenario isn't right, and so we have to come to the conclusion that one simultaneous action doesn't change how the other simultaneous actions play out. Because there isn't breakthrough endurance loss when a normal defender is protected by Superman, there must be breakthrough endurance loss when Wolverine moves back there.

Wolvie is never stunned in this scenario.

What I'd like to see happen is that UDE rule the combo doesn't work.

The easiest way to support that is to have all remaining events occur simultaneously after ATK/DEF comparison.

That way breakthrough is locked in before anything else happens.

It also clearly shows the relationship between stunning and breakthrough (i.e.: there isn't one).

Someone email Charsky and point him to this thread.

Walter wasn't suggesting that Wolverine is stunned; the post was drawing a parallel to cases where a character behind Kal-El is stunned, and so cannot be protected.