While I won't be entering my opinion, let's remember the real world too....


Batman as a character was created back in the 1930s (though the archetype existed long before). Times were VERY different then, as well as views on comic books. Comics weren't like they were today, each story was independent and lasted only a dozen pages. Popular characters were eventually given more time in the sun.

Batman was just a guy in a bat-suit solving mysteries. It was a pastime. He was a bored rich guy. The original comics (I recomend everyone pick up the graphic novel of Batman's first 20 or so appearances in Detective Comics) began with him sitting around with Commissioner Gordern, who took him to crime scenes because Bruce Wayne was BORED.

His origin appeared many issues later, and was fairly nonsensical. But how else could the writers explain it? Vengence is an easy and identifiable motivation.

And while everyone mocks Adam West for being campy, original Batman was so much worse! For example, in one comic he is rubbing makeup off a old woman to reveal her as a young burgler, and she protests. He replies:

"Quiet, or papa spank!"

.....no where CLOSE to the Batman idolized today.

So while we say Batman is acting out the wrong way, he could have gotten therapy or took over the company, the fact is that he was created as a vigilante first and a person second. It wouldn't be an interesting story if he was a guy who moved on.

You can look at other characters that are often looked on as "heroes" (a tricky word as it is!). I don't know if anyone here delves deeply into Shakespeare, but everyone should know the story of Hamlet. Is Hamlet a good guy? He is (at the start of the play) a very good person, and gets worse as the play goes on. He seeks revenge, sends his two best friends off to be killed in his place, kills his father-in-law to be, and causes his girlfriend to kill herself! And yet, he is considered to be one of the most interesting characters ever penned. And there was only ONE man who worked on Hamlet (presumably, let's not get into that discussion on this forum)!

I don't remember if I had a point, so I'll end this now. There are a lot of fanboys who do idolize Batman, but to say he shouldn't be idolized because of his flaws is unfair. He has those flaws not only because flaws make interesting reading, but because Batman has existed for over 70 years, and has had dozens of writers, some of who make him one way and some another.

While I won't be entering my opinion, let's remember the real world too....


Batman as a character was created back in the 1930s (though the archetype existed long before). Times were VERY different then, as well as views on comic books. Comics weren't like they were today, each story was independent and lasted only a dozen pages. Popular characters were eventually given more time in the sun.

Batman was just a guy in a bat-suit solving mysteries. It was a pastime. He was a bored rich guy. The original comics (I recomend everyone pick up the graphic novel of Batman's first 20 or so appearances in Detective Comics) began with him sitting around with Commissioner Gordern, who took him to crime scenes because Bruce Wayne was BORED.

His origin appeared many issues later, and was fairly nonsensical. But how else could the writers explain it? Vengence is an easy and identifiable motivation.

And while everyone mocks Adam West for being campy, original Batman was so much worse! For example, in one comic he is rubbing makeup off a old woman to reveal her as a young burgler, and she protests. He replies:

"Quiet, or papa spank!"

.....no where CLOSE to the Batman idolized today.

So while we say Batman is acting out the wrong way, he could have gotten therapy or took over the company, the fact is that he was created as a vigilante first and a person second. It wouldn't be an interesting story if he was a guy who moved on.

You can look at other characters that are often looked on as "heroes" (a tricky word as it is!). I don't know if anyone here delves deeply into Shakespeare, but everyone should know the story of Hamlet. Is Hamlet a good guy? He is (at the start of the play) a very good person, and gets worse as the play goes on. He seeks revenge, sends his two best friends off to be killed in his place, kills his father-in-law to be, and causes his girlfriend to kill herself! And yet, he is considered to be one of the most interesting characters ever penned. And there was only ONE man who worked on Hamlet (presumably, let's not get into that discussion on this forum)!

I don't remember if I had a point, so I'll end this now. There are a lot of fanboys who do idolize Batman, but to say he shouldn't be idolized because of his flaws is unfair. He has those flaws not only because flaws make interesting reading, but because Batman has existed for over 70 years, and has had dozens of writers, some of who make him one way and some another.

That's a common misconception of people who know nothing about superheroes.

Every superhero who has gained wide-spread popularity has had some psychological aspects people found appealing that were completely unrelated to their powers.

Batman's lack of powers doesn't make him more complex than superheroes, it just makes him weaker, which is probably why he's portrayed as having such petty contempt for them.

Let me try to answer the original question --- "How has Batman affected you?"

All I can say is that for me, he is a link between generations. When I was a kid, I was a comic book fanatic. I was a DC kid, who only occasionally dabbled in Marvel. Superman was my first and all-time favorite superhero. Batman was a close second, but soon came to be in a tie with Supes. In fact, for years I had a Batman poster hanging on my bedroom wall. We're talking about the grey tights, blue cape and cowl Batman here. When I was young I was a voracious collector. My dad took me to my first old-time comic book shop where I was able to get Superman and Batman comics from the 50's and 60's. I'll never forget him doing that for me.

Years later, here we are and my own son is now a comic book and Batman fanatic. And without any prompting from me. I didn't turn him on to my collection until he found comics on his own and was serious about them. I gave him my collection and his most prized possession is the hard-cover graphic novel of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. I now read his comic books as he's become the collector now.

We got into this VS game after four years of playing other CCGs together. Once we heard about a game based on comic books (Overpower was before our time), we jumped in. The timing was perfect as the first set we got into was DC Origins and it was all about Batman.

From generation to generation, father-son bonding, all that good stuff and the Bat is a part of it all. That is how Batman has affected me.

Hope you can use it.

I think that DKR is over rated. I like it, but it isn't Miller or Batman's best. I would put Miller's Daredevil work over DKR. IMO Dark Knight Returns gets too mean spirited at times (such as Joker killing the boy scouts).

See, that's depending on how he's written. I find the problem with Batman these days is they never write him with the qualities that made me like the character to begin with.

Everyone's way too quick to jump on the 'Batman's a jerk' bandwagon when writing him. I mean, if he's such a jerk, why is he in the JLA? To sell comics? Great, how about making it MAKE SENSE for him to be on the team? How about making him and Superman FRIENDS again?

While your criticism is true, I think it's a bit unfair because I think you're just judging the character at his worst written. You do the same with Wolverine, I think.

I like both characters, and I'll admit I liked them when I was younger 'cause they were both the 'cool guys', however, as I grew up I came to like them for the qualities and complexity they both have when executed well.

And this is just unfair to anybody who likes him for a reason more than just "He's cool."

It's really condescending to think the ONLY reason people can like something is because it appeals to strictly to a base aspect of their personality.

This is just going along with the nonsense that comic writers are trying to weigh the character down with, all the while forgetting to make the comics fun.

Why can't Batman just not kill because he doesn't believe in it? Because he does respect life? Because he thinks it's despicable to fall to the level of the criminals he fights?

I'm all for giving a character psychological complexity, but when it's at the cost of making the character likeable when they're someone we're supposed to like, it's really lame.

The way you guys talk, there's NO reason to like Batman beyond 'He's cool. He's badass' and I know for DAMN sure that's not why I like the character.

See, this is true in DKR, but I think it makes the villains kinda one-dimensional. The Joker couldn't just be nuts without Batman being around?

As much as I hated the Killing Joke, it established an origin for the Joker that, IIRC, really had nothing to do with Batman and gave him a reason to snap and become a cackling psycho.

This kind of origin is more appealing to me than the notion that there would be no villain without a hero that Miller seems to have introduced to a lot of people.

No. I love Dark Knight Returns, but it pretty much did ruin the character. To my knowledge, the only good rendition of the character since (which is also THE BEST) is the Animated Series.

After DKR, every dork with a pen started writing Batman as a jerk without keeping any of the aspects that, y'know, made us LIKE the character beyond the superficial cool appeal.

By this logic, pretty much every character in comics EVER is a jerk. So why do you read comics?

Yes, by our society's strandards, Batman is crazy...however he is a COMIC BOOK CHARACTER! In his universe? He's more sane to be Batman than not.

And about the being a jerk to friends, how about when it's written that he's protective of them? And cares for them?

Yes he keeps everybody at arm's length, but that's natural for somebody with his issues. That's what makes him a good character. He has all these flaws but at the end of the day he fights for right, and does so with all he can.

This is why I don't usually like Superman. He's too unrealistically idyllic. It's funny 'cause I'm sure a lot of people hate how Superman is written in DKR, but I found that to be the first story where I legitimately LIKED Superman.

And I don't mean I liked how he was included in the story, but I LIKED SUPERMAN AS A CHARACTER.

Frank Miller actually managed to make Superman so perfectly flawed and sympathetic, yet still so Superman at the same time.

Except, of course, for Wolverine, right?

The Joker too mean-spirited? He's always been a psychotic, remorseless murderer. Just 'cause somebody actually had the balls to show him for what he is they're too mean-spirited?

Another thing is, DKR is Batman AND the Joker after a decade or so of not being able to be Batman and the Joker, so they're both going a little overboard.

Batman is in response to the disgusting state of society at the time, and the Joker is just matching Batman 'cause of his symbiosis with Batman in that interpretation of the character.

Oh, and for the record, I've really come to hate the silly notion that Batman can kick anybody's ass. It's always touted that, with the right preparation (which, granted, is Batman's specialty), Batman could kick ANYBODY'S ass. ANYBODY.

This is stupid because ANYBODY, with the right preparation, could kick ANYBODY'S ass.

Also, about the Tower of Babel arch, I haven't read it, but if they went the expected route Batman's a big jerk for having to make files on how to kick everyone's ass in the League before he would join. Why couldn't they just make it that he hade devised the plans in case one of the League went rogue? Or got mind-controlled like Superman did in the 12 issue long excuse to have Jim Lee draw every Bat-character ever that was Hush? Again, lazy writers making Batman completely unlikeable.

You know what? I completely understand why you guys bad mouth Batman, but the thing is, when the character's written as well as, say, the animated series? He's the best there is.
IMO at least.

Cyke I just want to point out you are what kept me reading this thread! Your frick'n hilarious! As far as how has Bat man affected me, as a person? He hasn't I admire him for his fictional qualities the same way I would Santa Claus. He is a great person in theory, but like all fictional characters you already know it is impossible to relate! He is a good idea, nothing more! Sure he is a "Sociapath" that's why we love him and it's the defining point that makes him a little more real than Santa Claus!

SnakeCharmer, your post was very reasonable and well written.

I'm all for that. I just wish DC agreed with us.

Unfortunately, every day, and in every way, Batman's attitude just keeps getting worse and worse.

Hey just because I hate Wolverine doesn't mean he's not a complex psychological character.

I hate him for the same reason I hate Batman. He treats everyone like garbage and never has to pay for it.

Except for that one stint where he and Punisher kept killing each other. That was pretty hilarious. :laugh:

Yeah, I was worried about coming off too trigger-happy on the Wolverine thing. I think I was just mistakenly remembering you bad-mouthing him for the reasons you said (which I agree with) and the fact that he was just a simplistic character.

Wolverine, like Bats needs to be written where we can actually like him, like, in Frank Miller's limited series where they added all the depth to him with Lord Shingen and Mariko (Was it her? I forget. I haven't read it in years 'cause a friend borrowed it and never returned it). He's so overplayed and mis-used it kills me that one of my favourites gets the shaft so bad.

In fact, Batman and Wolverine I like for a lot of the same reasons. Just for one example, they both wrestle with inner demons that make their relationships hard with those that they care about. People (writers, especially) seem to forget both these characters are some of the most caring there are. Wolverine and Jubilee, anyone? Batman and Carrie Kelly in DKR?

Batman and Wolverine would give their lives for their friends, even if they can be jerks to them sometimes. The fact is, they both do try and make up for it when the chips are down.

It's this conflict that adds the weight and sadness to the times when they are jerks (Which is ALL the time lately. Thank you writers AGAIN!), and some real joy to when they show how much they care.

Two examples?

DKR, when Carrie almost gets killed (getting shot at by cops I think? I'm all hazy right now) and Batman catches her and hugs her close as they escape on the Bat-Glider thingy, while saying "Good soldier. Good soldier.". Even that has a tinge of sadness because Bruce is so devoted to his war on crime that it's hard for him, even in a moment like that to just relate to a person ONLY on a human level...but he tries, and it's more than enough in that scene. See also the part where she runs up to him and hugs him and he has that slight smile in the batcave...creepy nudity aside.

In Grant Morrison's New X-Men run, Jean comes to talk to Wolverine about Scott's psychic affair with Emma Frost. Jean is obviously hurt and wanting to maybe even get back at Scott so she makes somewhat of an advance on Wolverine (maybe she initiated the kiss? I can't remember) and Wolverine kisses her, but right afterward he walks away saying "I already told you it won't work between us.". This is beautiful for at least two reasons...
1) Out of Wolverine's love for Jean, he won't allow her to make the mistake Scott (sorta) made by having her cheat on Scott, even if it means denying himself the love he's always wanted from her.
2) Out of respect for Scott, Scott and Jean's marriage, and the team, Wolverine will against his feelings to give Scott the chance to make it up to Jean, because he knows they belong together.

Wow, and here I think Batman: The Killing Joke is one of the best Batman comics ever written, hands down. DKR is a fun ride, and I love the story, but it isn't exactly the Batman many of us love. Killing Joke on the other hand has Gordan, Batman, Joker and Barbara all behaving like real people. Joker was utterly insane, yet believable. His actions are horrific, base and evil, and you feel the bullet entering your own spine in that terrifying scene. You feel for James Gordan as he is forced to look at pictures of his naked, near-dead blood-spattered daughter by a deranged white and green and purple laughing lunatic. I always found it to be a defining moment in comics *shrug*. And, IMHO, better than DKR by quite a bit.

Batman as Effected me because a bought a novel with him as the main character...thats about it..sorry

WAIT!!!! He worked with Nightwing. I like nightwing!

I have been reading comics for almost twenty years now.
Batman is more of an ideal then a man. He stands for the notion that no matter what the odds are the human mind can triumph.
He has beaten superman on various occations because he plans for the encounter. He has plans made to defeat each of the justice league if they were to turn evil. he is the law of DC with an unyielding will. This is what Bob Kane wanted, when we think of Batman we think of him as more one of us, while Superman is one of them.

just read the comics before you guys whine about how he can't beat superman or some super powered villian. He can and he has.

And while we're at it, I have almost never on this site heard any Batman fan say "he couldn't beat so-and-so."

I've heard a million times the sentence, "Given time, Batman could beat anyone." And frankly, I'm sick of it.

wow, a real logical post by a fan of batman and wolverine.

sorry for my snippyness, but i used to enjoy wolverine when he is part of the larger x-men, his relationship with the other characters and how he played a part in the machine was very interesting.

what people don't understand is that logan and scott may not agree, but they have this immense respect for each other. in one time, logan called scott and jean his two favorite people, they went through alot together and something like that affects people.

but when bad writers only use wolverine and batman to sell books, to point the characters as one-sided, and casual fans just see the surface of the character and think that is all their is to it. it gets annoying.

maybe i am misplacing my annoying of the fans on the possibly undeserving characters, but until the companies and the writers start writing them as people and not paychecks, then i have no reason to enjoy them.

Out of curiousity, (and totally off topic) what heroes do you like cyke? how bout you bizarro? I read a lot about the charaters you don't like so I was just wondering which character you do like.

By the way, thank you for your post snakecharmer. I felt Batman was getting unfairly abused but couldn't phrase my points the way that you did. I agree, that poor writing has done a lot of damage to Batman in recent years. Hopefully, this to shall pass.