Orumceck: It seems to me that the major flaw (as you reference in post 24) is that you're still assuming happiness is the goal. So then my question is: why can't pleasure be one of the goals? What if you're aiming for both happiness and pleasure? Personally, I plan on living a good life down the road, but I'm playing VS right now for pleasure. Does this make me a bad person, unfit for happiness once my life proceeds far enough?

Also, one thing that I've come across in my studies is that a moral code in and of itself will be inherently wrong. Seriously, name a moral code, and I can tell you a case where it justifies what is classically considered evil. Here's some examples:

Utilitarianism: The organ harvest case. If you're a doctor, and you have 5 patients, who will all die if they don't get 5 different organs, and one healthy patient with all 5 of those organs but who is completely and utterly unrelated and innocent, you are morally obliged to harvest the innocent patient for the other 5 to survive.

Kantianism: You are morally obliged to always tell the truth under Kantianism (because lieing interferes with rational behavior, what all of humanity is based upon, according to Kant). Therefore, if a murderer comes to your house and asks where your best friend is so that they can murder him, you are MORALLY OBLIGED to tell the murderer the TRUTH as to where your friend is.

Virtue Ethics: As I've already said, I think Nietzche did a fine job putting this one to shame. Throw in the fact that we have no reason to try and go with one virtue over any other than what we arbitrarily define as which is MOST "important" (as you have done with happiness; say, why shouldn't we value selflessness over happiness?), and you have Virtue Ethics shot in the ####ing foot. After all, what if Doom is right, and us inhibiting him from getting to power is depriving all of us from happiness? How would we know until we tried it? Might as well just let him take over and see.... (One of my FAVORITE recurring things within the Marvel Universe is how much Latveria NEEDS Doom, even if its afraid of him, and how much he's brought his country.)

Ethical Egoism: ####ing please, this one's a joke. If you REALLY need me to give you an example of when it justifies evil, you don't even know what it is.

Because of these factors, I think that judging a game based on some sort of moral code is inherently flawed. Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't like knowing I can morally justify my own evil actions with your moral code you're using to crucify VS with, though.


Ranma: Heh, actually, I always liked threads like this one. Although you're right, why SHOULD a game matter so god damned much?


Jaeger: I assume you've read Secret Wars. Was Magneto on the side of Good or the side of Evil? Hell no "villains" don't have to be evil!


Stu: Actually, over seven hundred horny 18-year-olds contract Netdecking every single day from unprotected sex.

Because true happiness only occurs when a human cares this god damned much.

And I think this leads back into Orumceck's original argument. I don't think a game should matter. It's a way to make money and/or have fun, depending on your level. The same is said of a lot of other games (professional sports and gambling). However, Orumceck's point it seems is that people care SO MUCH about VS that they don't care enough about the things that actually lead to happiness.

Is it true happiness if you "care this god damned much" about a piece of lint you found in your pocket? Is it true happiness if you're a bum whose amazed with shiny lights, and so you spend all your time staring at a neon sign until you die of starvation? Is it true happiness if you care so much about the high you feel when you shoot up that you'll do anything, ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING to get to that high? Or is caring IN AND OF ITSELF just another example of something that's merely a pleasure, something that's not nearly as good as happiness?



P.S. Is it just me, or is everyone else disgusted by the thought of Rian Fike's "forbidden stuff"? I mean, I know you can find anything on the internet, but he's a dirty old hippy; that's GOTTA be nasty!

Yes, that is true happiness. But I am not there yet. My neon sign is found in between Nina's legs, and it feeds me just fine.

So then you agree with this, too? I mean, it's the same basic idea: caring.

After all, who said the bum isn't already high, and that's why he's so obsessed with a neon sign?


P.S. MAN I hope this doesn't turn into Stu and I having too much merriment in a serious thread topic.

I think it should be known that in any competitive circumstance wether it be ice skateing, baseball or versus people ask these questions!

If any of us could play versus for a living we would ultimately get bored of versus or want to do something else. Imagine what proffesional golfers have to go through.

so how badly do you want to play?

I have found often much pleasure and happiness in versus and I have found much pain and misery in it as well.

For every thought of pleasure we have there are two opposing thoughts of pain that go along with it. Also with every thought of pain there is 2 thoughts of pleasure to go with it.

In the end i have come to the conclusion that you never get any better by quiting!

those who run the race of life my not win however those who quit never finish the race!

as for me Profparm (Gabe) i have never been much on any philosphy that doesn't love others in the process.

Its ok if it makes you guys happy.

Oh God, you want me to seriously spout about my version of true happiness? It goes back to Joseph Campbell. The man is the greatest human who lived during my lifetime, and he distilled the entire argument into three words:

Follow Your Bliss.

Bliss is an internal light. It gets stronger and more luminous as you learn, as an individual, what blisses you best. You repeat the blissing and find out how bright you can get the light and how long you can maintain the glow. You train yourself in Personal Bliss Maintenance.

For me, I don't get quite as blissed if I am doing something that doesn't enrich the lives of other humans. But that's just me. I would not fault anyone for any course of action that follows their own bliss.

You will say "So what about the murderer who blisses over causing pain and death, or the Jerry Springer Generation that you hate so vehemently?"

Well, I guess I would say that they are misguided in their pursuit of bliss and that they are settling for much less than true happiness. But that is only my opinion and they may very well be happier than me.

Sorry for the double post, but Gabe has the Click-Fu going strong and I missed that one.

Have you googled it yet? It has some surprises.

wow, I misguessed the amount of intelectuals in the VS community...

But why don't we just take the short answer on this one and say that is up to the person to determine the happiness recieved for thier actions?

Savage (Joe): DON'T USE MY REAL NAME! IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MY SECRET IDENTITY!

Honestly, though, I'm not too much into loving others. I'm more of a hater. Why do you think I play Doom all the time?

Stu: Your whole "Follow your own Bliss, whatever makes you happy, man" seems like a cross between Hedonism and Ethical Egoism. Hedonism, I'm sure you know of and are a fan of, well, it's looked down upon by almost every single moral code (both the logical ones I usually refer to and the religious based ones). Ethical Egoism is held in the same regard, but it's when you do what's best for you at any given moment. Not only that, but your system has the same central flaw of Virtue Ethics, that we can't actually tell whether or not anyone's actions were ever immoral, because they might've just been following their own light, who knows?

Oh, and I'll google that someday...when I'm so very, very lonely....

Wow. You guys sure do use a lot of words to answer this...

Fine.

"Yes."

I know. That's why I'm a fan.

(By the way, I mentioned Kansas in Monday's Metagame article, just for you. Don't miss it.)

Profparm's assessment of moral codes is in many regards on the mark. A code is a system to solve a problem, and a moral code is a system designed to reduce life’s problems and solutions to simple, universal principles.

There is no perfect moral code, because life and good are simply too large to be broken down so simply. What is needed is not one moral code, but the studying of many. This is why reading is so important.

If one were to read Mein Kampf and nothing else, well, what knowledge would they have to realize its truths and mistruths? We need knowledge to distinguish the true from the false. 2 year olds don’t often know that 2 + 2 does not equal 5. This all must be learned.

Where do we start then? It's simple - we start with what is self-evident. We study science, math, human nature, and draw truths from deductive reasoning (this is what Aristotle did). Every moral code begins with some element of truth, the question is - how badly do they distort it? National Socialism (Nazism) distorted it quite well. I'm sure we all agree that racial supremacy is factually and scientifically flawed.

Pleasure does not lead to happiness, though as profparm states Hedonists believe this. Many surveys and studies have been done, and every credible one has shown that people who put pleasure first (drugs, sex, vice) are generally unhappy (even suicidal) while people who put good first (relationships, friends, family, charity, helping/positive work) are generally happy.

As humans, we all have the same inherent nature. Due to different genetics and environments we come up with different ideas of right/wrong, pleasure, and skills. But humans are not different species - something that is good is not good for just one person but good for everyone, like vegetables (or friends, family, and virtues).