I partially disagree with what Anthony is saying; if he's saying what I think he is. To me, the modern age events provide the most advantage to a large team. Teams provide you with the ability to create your own metagame - for a format that nobody has any clue about - and test the hell out of every deck. Provided your own little bubble isn't a million miles from reality this gives you a huge advantage. Given that most people have things to do outside of VS, coming up with all this stuff is not easy for 1-4 people on their own.

I also think the stats on this verify what I'm saying. Until recently FTN might be considered a 'large team' - probably the largest real team in the game until TDC. In the three modern age pro circuits so far, FTN has won two of them and come within 1 endurance of winning all three (Dalton vs Horvath in Amsterdam). The ability to do the things I prescribe above is what has contributed to this.

Where I agree w/ Anthony is that entirely new formats with even larger card pools (such as silver age) provide an even greater advantage to large teams. However, this advantage is negated somewhat if the format is continuously supported. For example, teams will have a big advantage for PC San Fransisco (not least because of the tiny amount of time between the DCR spoiler releasing and the PC: only 1 month!). However if Silver age continues to be supported with 10ks and more PCs and such, the largest 'team' in the world - the wider metagame itself - will continue to evolve the existing decks and find the new ones publicly. This is basically how Golden Age works.

Teams do get the advantage of being able to quickly break a new set in the context of the wider format. However, because it is only one set among eight for Silver age (though technically two, given that one set rotates out as well), if the format is already 'established' prior to the release of the new set, this ability is less powerful than in the case of modern age (where the new set is one among two - and in any case, the format is entirely unknown beforehand).

In the end, if Silver age continues to be just another modern format - wheeled out once a year for PCs and the occasional 10k immediately afterwards - it will certainly continue to be the preserve of large teams, as Modern has proved to be. However, if it evolves to become basically the new Golden age - a type II format, if you will - as I hope it does, the field should become much more open for subsequent events.

Without doubt any format that hasn't been established is going to give big teams the largest advantage. Until I talked to Chuck this past weeekend I had no idea exactly how huge that advantage was. FTN has basically dominated the modern formats, and for good reason.

On a team of 5-6 people where MAYBE four people will be big time contributors, you simply aren't going to see a good representation of the meta. When you have 10+ people, and nearly all of them are contributing, you will definately be ready for that format.

Basically, bigger teams obviously have an advantage as far as playtesting goes. The disadvantages have already been stated. Personally, I don't think a team that large with that many money finishers will exist for too long.

Actually... I want to take this back to more about what kind of team TDC really is.

I was cruising the other site because Kergy had an article covering the teams at PC Atlanta and there was some criticism on the actual "teaminess" of TDC:

1. Aren't they really just a partnership between smaller teams and non-team affiliated players?
2. Who is actually on their team?
3. How does a team add members during a tournament?
4. Other than everyone having access to a team forum, how does a team that size actually test other than in their local pods (this was a problem we had with TRW which is why it went all West Coast except for Dave)?
5. Do they have a money split?

Adam and Dave defended how their team operates in the discussion but it really didn't completely answer a lot of the above questions for me. So hopefully they see this and shed some light on it.

The funny part was that Dave told me they were probably going to pare down after the PC... but instead they got bigger. Is there a point where a team gets too big?

Some good questions - you should post that over there as well;)

I'm happy that they defend themselves (they have a ton of fun at events!) but I can't say that I'm confident that things will end up as they claim they will be. I think that on one hand, having a few large teams duking it out among the contenders will be good for the game - increased excitement, the building of rivalries, the increase in on-site gambl..erm...ignore that last one.... - that's contingent on them being a concrete team. Too much flux = too much chaos and confusion.

I want TDC to work, to be a tight and competitive team-working force to be reckoned with. What I don't want is an army of TDC zombies making up 2/3rds of the PC field - half of whom are adopted in the middle of the PC!

But hey, I'm apparently uninformed and don't know what I'm talking about, so what do I know? =)=)

There is a point where "teaming" become "collusion." Negotiating wins on-site with the promise of team affiliation (and prize-split) qualifies as collusion.

That said, the biggest problem with large teams is free-ridership. Some people really work and contribute, some are just there to get decklists. When who is who gets sorted out, the team will get smaller. Think about how large Realmworx was at one point before it became the Vidi and Jonesy show.

Actually no, we are a full fledged team with mostly everyone contributing. Obviously, some more than others, but everyone chips in enough to keep their spot on the team.

Everyone originally that I posted plus Brian and Kyle making the roster an even 18. I suppose we need to add Patrick and Quanq so we can have 20. That sounds nice.

Brian got added because Josh gave him the Faces deck a few days before the tournament and he was so appreciative that he asked if he could contribute to the team split. Brian is Josh's playtest partner but he did not have access to the X-Faces deck because we had strict guidelines about that deck getting out since it was the best deck.

Kyle got added round four of the 10k because everyone loves him and he is completely by himself in KC and yet he still manages to be in the top 20 after day one at every PC. Obviously he needs some draft work...we all do, but we decided that he would be a good addition. Him making the finals of the 10k was an added bonus. I mean really, we didn't need him on our team to add to our legend. We had three in the top eight and Gabe finished 9th. We already wrecked that tournament anyways.

We use Octagon and each "cell" posts results on the team forums. We have four major tech producers (Tice, Prosak, Jacob, Justice) and the rest of us put in the playtesting work.

We have a 10% split at the PC and a 20% split at 10ks. 10ks are just for fun and the 20% split pays for everyone's travel.

I don't really understand why this thread was even started. We only won 45k at the PC. That isn't amazing considering our numbers. FTN won more than that. Why are you not tearing those guys down.

Having said that, we will focus more on the limited play at the next PC. We are all embarrassed by our Atlanta performance even if we did put 14 people in the money (thanks Josh).

Honestly, if more effort is made by our team as a whole, I do think TDC will be bad for the game. No one will win anymore 10ks outside our team (except the ones at the PC) and we will probably have 3-4 in the top eight at each PC. But until that happens, these types of threads are a bit premature.

But thanks for the attention. You know I love it.

I don't mean to tear you guys down... I'm just interested in the current and future state of TDC. Remember... you told me you were going to cut down your numbers and the opposite has occured.
I think TDC is good for the game... VS needs more powerhouse teams. I don't think you guys will dominate every $10k but good luck with that.

As for Patrick and Quang... you're gonna have to play more Nintendo with me to get that to happen.

Does a team like this potentially raise the level of competition for the game? Yes.

Is a higher level of competition good for the game? Yes.

Can someone not on the Uber-Team (tm) still take home the gold? Yes. (Think Bobby Fisher vs. the Russian Chess Engine).

Theres no Justice in draft.


Tho I'm in the same boat, 20-19 day 2 lifetime (with 2 byes and a concession not included, ugh).

to be fair, there are no japanese on tdc. they have one PC, maybe two to put up those lofty numbers(50% pc top eight).

You just answered your own question. Hubris is a nasty, nasty thing. It is only good for the fans who cheer for the little guy as the big boastful bully falls flat face-first.

I know I said I wouldn't post again in this thread, but you know me. I am beginning to think my real middle name is "Takes The Bait".

That is actually my biggest beef, but it is way too serious of a subject for such a glorious morning. Besides, from now on Ima save all the "mean" stuff for Star City.

There is also the fact that your alternate moniker "The Ass Pack" (TAP) is so brilliant that I will be jealous forever... but the real reason I started this thread is simple:

Everyone with an ounce of integrity hates the Yankees. In fact, Tom Robbins put it best in Fierce Invalids Home From Hot Climates. Switters was meeting a fellow spy in a ratty bar, deep in the jungles of South America. They needed to use codewords to identify themselves for the information exchange. Switters yelled loudly as soon as he entered: "#### the New York Yankees!" A voice from a smoky booth responded: "#### Notre Dame!"

Understand?

All I know is that is this supposed uber-team ever dominates like they say they will, several things will possibly happen:

1. Competetivness will kill the game, the same people top 8'n each and every 10k/pc will eventually kill off the casual player too. Why? Because everyone and their mother will be playing 'tier 1' vs their Darksieds Elite/X-Statix build. Heck those players might even go as far as to exclude that guy, since he only plays for fun and not seriously. Death to the casual =/.

2.$ payouts will go down. UDE sees the same guys top 8'ing, and sales going down because of over competitiveness,people only buying specific cards for the flavor of the month deck (see:X-Faces) why should they pay them? This isn't a job. The $ is a reward for playing the system and enjoying it. Sure, this idea is a bit more farfetched, but hey, you know the game is dying when this happens.

3.Egos will rise and the mood will be tense,hatefull, and just plain un-fun. ITS A GAME. you're playing with colors on cardboard to represent abstract effects and rules. This isn't your life, if you lose deal. It shouldn't be as competetive as it is, it infuriates me to see someone else's deck referred to as trash, even though it won, maybe that play is JUST THAT GOOD, and everyone else is relying on LUCK/STATISTICS and tricks they learned from their pals. We've all seen the reports, Dave isn't nearly as good as he lets, on, but he still wins, why? I dunno maybe he IS good, but he himself certainly claims otherwise. He just has good friends, a recognizeable name and face, and probably wins through name recognition/intimidation more than anything else.
I can imagine a first time PC'er playing him and thinking 'OMG! I'm playing Dave Spears! That guy who writes on vsrealms and tests with Adam Prosak,Nick little, and Josh wit-witann....er that one titans guy! I'm totally boned cuz he's probably got some major tech!' I seriously think this has happened by now, and some poor soul actually lost because he lost his nerve. I'll grant there are those with WORSE egos,and are worse jerks, but seriously, this whole team thing shouldn't be paraded as much as it is.

4.Lack of respect for the canon off of which this is based. This is a bit more casual, and its unfortunate the way this game has been made and grown, but I don't think anyone really knows half of who they place on the table.
If I wanted featureless characters with game breaking abilities that have no real flavor or fluff to them, I'll go play
Magic, where every red creature has some direct damage, green creatures are big, black destroys things, and winning is as simple as drawing cards and searching out land.
I play this game for the characters I associate Roy harper with Green Arrow, Outsiders, drug addictions, and the uncanny accurate ability he has. NOT the ability to stun a character outside of combat, and re-ready all your titans.
I was distrought to hear that this was Josh Wittanen's favortie character, I doubt he's ever picked up titans or outsiders comic in his life (He does know that roy harper is/was a member of the team Outsiders, right?) or even bothere to wikipedia or surf the net for info. Let alone half the other characters in that deck. Why isit his favorite character? because hes won games with that card alone, because he associates good game effects with that NAME, not that character with those abilities.

This is all probably a meaningless inchoherent rant to those it was aimed at, but I really don't care for their opinion, on this, or any deck, or anything in general. Its just a rant I had to let loose, and I'm feeling much better for it now.

Actually, I enjoy watching the Yankees play against another good team. If they win, you can tell it's because of their skill at the game. If they lose, you can tell it's because the other team is packing synergy.

Anyone who says TDC will kill the casual player is retarded. I am a casual-competitive player, and big teams have affected me little to none, because I don't ever play against any of their players.

Really, this just means that the next time I see Kyle when I go to a tournament in KC, I'm going to have to congratulate him for getting into a big tourney and for being a damned good representative of the Midwest. Before long, we might actually get a respectable tournament out here, if more of us good players in this region actually gain the ability to make it out to real tournaments. (And in the last PCQ in KC, he was acting as the judge and not playing. By the way, for anyone who hasn't met him, a real classy guy.)

If anything, bigger teams inspire(d) me and my team to come up with a better name in order to compete with the ability to one day make it into someone's (obviously elitist) articles. Team Shocker for the win.

"We'll leave you exhausted!"

Your criticism is actually one of the great benefits of this game. Firstly I have to say though that this game is extremely respectful for the source material and matches flavor more than nearly all other licensed games. Secondly, its an inherent strength of the game that you can have someone who is not interested in the source material play it and enjoy it... I am a comic book nut myself, so I originally started because of that, however I know plenty of my friends who have no interest in comics start the game because on its base level it is a great game.

I find it funny that you say that if you wanted featureless characters with no real flavor or fluff you'd go play Magic - when obviously, VS System is the far superior product even if you take the flavor and fluff away ;)

What philosophical school does that arguement represent again?

There is one thing the casual player must survive in this situation that cannot be denied: The pros will try to get you to concede to them quite often, even after you beat them.

That can kill the morale of the non-teamed non-pro casual player. It makes them wonder if all the Top 8s are a matter of intimidation and leverage instead of actual playskill.

It may not be a reflection of any particular team or team leader, but the purely competitive money-first win-at-all-costs attitude can kill the casual player's interest in any form of tournament.

Retarded or not.