all tag words (leader, ally, vengeance, backup) are followed by a colon and then gametext. keywords (reservist, concealed, loyalty) aren't. it's pretty simple, folks.

although i do have to say i didn't like the way they turned "mutant-physical" into "physical card"....that is actually way more confusing than any of this backup nonsense.

and if you don't understand free....well i can't help you.

It's not a horse. It's a donkey.

Thanks for the contructive criticism. I will take it into account.

(Were you complaining about me complaining about complaining without complaining?)

VS System isn't easy to learn. It's one of the hardest-to-learn card games on the maket unless you've already played another card game, and I'm pretty sure YGO players who get introduced to it at a young age are going to not give it a second try because of the amount of math you have to do on every attack.

That said, I think keywords without explicit meanings (like leader and ally) are fine to introduce. Keywords with meanings (like reservist and evasion) should be kept to a minimum. The real purpose of these keywords is to give other cards an ability name to reference, which is perfectly acceptable--the cards do what they say they do, and the keywords allow flavorful cards to be made without ratcheting up the confusion factor.

it also allows for keyword specific decks to be made. You could build a deck around leader, evasion and so on. These keywords give ude the opportunity to introduce new mechanics and cards based on these keywords(ie: heros welcome, shake it off, mysterious benefactor)

Plus to be honest I started playing in december after jla and avengers sets came out and I was able to learn all the keywords very quickly, most of them are simple to understand and learn. I dont think were giving new players enopugh credit here.

Card games have mechanics. Its how you play the game. In every card game I have played, new sets release new mechanics. In magic every block would have a specific mechanic or 2 and a new one each set. Currently in Ravnica I cannot even name all the mechanics because each guild has their own, but I know what a lot of them are, and to add to this I don’t even play magic, but I still understand what their mechanics do. This does cause the complexity of the game to rise with each set, but that is not a bad thing. One of the reasons why I like card games are that their constantly challenge me. You may be able to become an awesome player in skill, but it is terribly hard to master.

Mechanics in Vs for example give a team an identity. I know how much some of you would love it if every team was a vanilla curve deck and all played the same but with a little difference here and there its just not possible. Every team has a different way to play them which gives them a different purpose AND gives you a reason to play them. One of the reasons why a lot of people stay away from something like Arkam is that at its base it’s just another curve deck. It doesn’t have much more to offer then what is already and done better by other teams.

Keywords get referenced by plot twists and other things that will come up later. Concealed, Evasion, and Reservists were all revisited in X-Men, and I heard nothing but praise coming from people about how previous mechanics were used again in new teams. Given time there is a damn good chance that Vengeance and Backup will be seen again.

This allows you to be able to play Reservist deck, Concealed deck, Evasion deck, Willpower deck, Mutant Trait deck, Ally deck and maybe one day Vengeance deck. Plus it could give some new uses of old cards. Who would have though to ever see Ricochet again from the Spiderman set, but he shows up in Morlocks.

In Limited the mechanics give each set a different flavor in draft. It gives it a whole different dynamic when don’t have to just draft the same team. In X-Men for example you can try to draft teams or traits. They work together well enough that you could go either way.

If a person wants to play a card game they will learn, otherwise let them do what they want.

The biggest problem I saw with the original post was that someone was trying to learn the game at pre-release. A pre-release is not the best place to get hooked on VS. That should be something happening at Hobby League or your local tournament night.

I understand the comparisons people are making between the keywords/mechanics used in Vs and those used in Magic. However, I think this is akin to coparing apples and oranges. Magic is an estabished game with a very large player base while Vs. is the new kid on the block attempting to establish itself. Vs. needs to concerni itself with attracting new players more so than Magic.

Now I am not for dumbing done Vs. to make it an "easy" or "simple" game. The depth and parity available in Vs. is what I like about the game. At the same time the game needs to grow. Knoxville has a strong Yugioh and Magic player base, but no Vs. Attracting new players is a major concern for me.

I think a viable compromise would be to only introduce one keyword/mechanic a set for awhile and focus more on developing existing keywords/mechanics.

Improve and expound on what you have rather than constantly trying to reinvent the wheel.

Now for the petty bickering and flaming part of the post.


Uh....thank you for that Dr. Phil moment and the free spell check service.

Complaining.....so that is it....I guess that explains my fat wife, dirty kids, piss stained couch, and why some repo guy just towed my house away....This stuff is better than anything Yoda said to Luke.

Thanks Man.

wow, truitt! is this the second time in two months that another former Demo team guy is having at it with the Stumeister?

Take it from me, leave it alone. You WON'T be able to change many minds here. I've tried. and almost got serious Warning points for it, (not that I didn't desereve it)

kilroy, that was one of the best parties of the year! Dude, you are on my Christmas list for that.

truitt, as long as your dirty piss stained wife is beautiful to you... who cares?

Seriously (am I even allowed to say that word?) ....

We get one of these thread every single set and I was on the rag the day it started.

Carry on.

Think about how much the game would be if all we had to work with was Loyalty, Boost, Evasion, and Cosmic. no, 4's good enough, no need to make it complicated. The thing that makes it non-complicated to a learner is that half of the card's say what the ability does anyway. On a scale of 1 to 4, I would say these are the difficulty of teaching someone how to effectively use and abuse mechanics
Activate:1-easy
Transferable:1-easy
Ongoing 1-easy
Loyalty: 1- easy
Loyalty-Reveal: 1 easy
Unique:1 easy
Boost: 2- only because it might be more difficult to know when to use it or drop an on-curve character
Evasion: 3- This will always be a tough one, no matter what. Knowing when to use this can be very difficult.
Cosmic: 1- easy enough
Invulnerability:1- easy
Concealed and Concealed-Optional:2-What character should they drop, visible or concealed? not too hard, depends.
Willpower: 2-only because of what to do with it.
Leader: 2- only because of formation issues
Reservist:1- not that tough, make sure you keep reservists in the resource row.
Ally:2-only because of what cards to go with it
Mutant: 3- not really good for beginners to do trait decks
Vengeance: 1- get stunned.
Backup:1-only because it hasn't been fully explored yet.

While I will admit that the new mechanics are more complicated than old ones, I think that if you have patience and pack the right cards, it will be easy. I've seen people just go Here's a Squadron deck, let me teach you. No wait, this does this and he has that so you lose and AAAAAA YOU IDIOT!!!! Instead of, hey, let's not just start playing and let's learn the mechanics and basics first. I learned VS. by buying the Batman Vs. Joker starter set, took a whole weekend out of my life to learn it, and since then I've had rarely any trouble keeping up.

P.S. It's amazing that by reading these threads I add so many people to my list of people I never want to meet.

well said, I learned the game with the fantastic four starter. Learned basic things like formation, flight,range etc.

From there once I had the basics down picking up the keywords is cake. People are smarter than some people on the boards are giving them credit for.

All these mechanics make lots of different playstyles possibvle, which is very healthy for any game IMO

I feel like we are talking past each other here. So let me try to clarify a few points for the "too many mechanics side"

None of the mechanics in and of themselves are that complicated or hard to understand. The point is that the number of mechanics can be intimidating for a new player.

Yes a person can easily overcome the number and learn the game, but initial impressions can be very powerful and the large number of keywords makes the game seem to complicated. A large volume of simple information can result in something complicated.

I agree that new mechanics are good. Heck, can anyone imagine playing the game now without reservist or concealed. These are good mechanics, but they are also mechanics that have been used for more than one set and are also very developed.

Compare those to cosmic, Invulnerability, leader-could you see yourself playing the game without these mechanics? Instead of introducing new mechanics why not revist these and attempt to integrate them more.

I guess my general point is the mechanics debate does not need to be an either or proposition. R&D doesn't need to dumb down the game, but at the same time they don't need to make the game LOOK more compiicated than it is.

thanks for mtruitt for holding up the line :)

I just want to iterate that divserity in the game is good. There's no doubt about it. BUT, there comes a point where you have to say, okay, we have the mechanics we need for a fully-fleshed out game (which I believe exists right now), and instead of shoehorning new ones in just because (I don't care what anyone says, there was no need for Backup!), let's use the ones we have and get the most out of them, like how they expanded Loyalty-Reveal, and Concealed-Optional. I don't believe they've done that yet.

I think part of the problem is that even though we have 40+ teams now, we keep getting 4 or 5 new ones a set, and they simply don't know what to do with them, so they make new keywords to try to make them unique. Maybe once they drop back to 2 new teams a set, the keywords will slow down too.

On the other side:

Have you (or anyone on the "Too Many Mechanics" side) had any trouble with potential players, when you try to teach them the game say that they are having a hard time learning because of all the mechanics?

Do they not even try to learn and say "I don't want to bother learning all the mechanics?"

Or is this hypothetical?

I haven't had any problem teaching players (who really want to play) how to work the game. I've once heard "I don't want to bother learning all those keywords," though that was the guy's cover for saying "I'm just not interested."

Redundacy in the vein of Backup should be avoided in future sets. However, they are condensing text by introducing Loyalty-Reveal and earlier sets with the term "replacing resources" as well. This game is not for lazy people. Learning this game is a daunting task. However, if new players tough it out they will find it to be quite enjoyable. Now, the game could use a bit of "transitional" subject matter in between basic starter decks and the booster sets.

Methods of doing this would be to demo decks with a specific keyword (i.e. Concealed) against one another. Then extend that method to another keyword. (i.e. Evasion) Keep going down the line with demo decks that are based on one keyword. By being exposed to a keyword for multiple games and it being the only mechanic the new player has to deal with, it decreases the learning curve for said player.

Now with the amount of keywords we currently have that task may seem daunting to teach and to learn. However, a mature thinking player will realize that they are trying to get into a game that has been around for 2 years now. They're behind 2 years worth of material. If they want to catch up to where most players are in basic comprehension of the game, time will have to be invested into it. If they're not willing to put that effort into it, then they are either:

1. Too lazy/unmotivated to learn.

2. Looking for another simple TCG like Yu-Gi-Oh!

VS may be complicated, but it doesn't require any more effort to learn than most other TCGs out there. By the way Stu, thanks for the nugget of wisdom. I sigged you good! :)