In other words, Superman's character should be written to the stereotype everyone has of Superman and that most people use as the reason they don't like to read Superman in the first place.

EDIT:

Also ... Punisher running around freely in the Marvel Universe means that NO ONE is 'stopping' him ... that every hero is just letting him 'do his job'. There are actual Gods running around the Marvel Universe, in addition to Superman Yellow ... I'm not saying you have to like Countdown ... I'm just saying that you are coming up with stupid reasons to justify an opinion which, because it is an opinion, you don't actually have to justify.

Also ... on the whole Batman thing ... Jason Todd was Bruce Wayne's ward ... just like Dick, right? Thus ... bringing him into POLICE custody would make for a greater risk than of Jason Todd blabbing ... especially if people know the "Red Hood = ex-Robin" connection [not sure about it].

i understand that THIS is an inherent problem with the superman character and i am not blaming countdown for it. but highlighting this problem within countdown is just one of the many reasons i have hated the book so far. and they seem to be getting worse. did you read 49 yet? :p

that's not what i said. you jumped to those conclusions all by yourself.

the marvel universe is very different than the DC universe when it comes to morality. there are subtle differences but i'm sure as you, as a long time comics reader, you can spot them easily. morality has always been looser at marvel than at DC. marvel straddles the grey area more successfully and that's why i enjoy reading their books right now. the problems i am now having with DC are based on their attempts to copy or assimilate the marvel model. the darker model. their attempts so far have been, for the most part, clumsy and badly written.

there are no gods like superman (with the proper moral fiber) running around in the marvel universe. ares is a bloodthirsty warrior. sentry is insane. thor has yet to make his return but is also not against killing. i'm not sure what other "gods" you were talking about? it's not just that superman is a god, he's a god with a strong sense of duty and an incorruptible moral compass. marvel does not have these types of characters. and i don't think there is anything wrong with a character like this. did you read joe kelly's run on superman? one of the best (of all-time IMHO) and he successfully showed why superman does not kill and at the same time made it extremely compelling.

again, only bad writers make superman boring. is this not the same with any character?


well, thanks for allowing me my opinion...um, "no thanks" for calling it stupid?

if i don't justify the reasons i didn't like countdown, what am i supposed to say to dylan when he asks me, "so, why didn't you like countdown?"

billy: "i don't have to justify myself to you."
dylan: "..."
billy: "can we move on? this is getting awkward..."
dylan: "..."


:ermm:

Battle of the Century, in a nutshell.

yeah, if only. if only i could get that Dylan guy to shut it and stop digressing into pointless diatribes about the golden age of comics when they sold them on spinners for a nickle a pop.

You know I actually had a New Comic Book Day argument with a Marvel fan who misses the Golden Age of Marvel, and went on to talk about the core of characters and how it shouldn't be tampered with. Then he went on to tell me how he hated all the Spider-man films, and that Superman Returns was Wonderful. I was left feeling very sad.

golden age of marvel? like cap and torch and subby and the original vision? guys like that? what, was he like 150 years old? in a wheelchair? hooked up to an oxygen tank? trying to rule the world from beyond the grave or check into a psycho ward, whichever comes first?

:classic:

Glad I could I could verify all that for you. It also illustrates the kind of people I run into weekly.

Oh my god you said his real name. I thought he was in the witness protection program with all the false names. Plus, you don't like his awesome Stan Lee impressions, or hearing about the golden days when comics cost a dime. What's wrong with you? Hey Billy when does the recording come out? Let me know please and thank you. Sorry to piss you off about all star batman and robin but remember I penalty box your pics as well man. Like of course Ultimates 2 was better than all star batman and robin. Of course pretty much all your picks for worst movies were worse than Hellboy, I just try to be unique with my pics rather than reguirgitate your pics cause that's boring. Plus, Catwoman was worse than Elektra just to let you know and end your daily battle.

I'm just saying that "I don't like Countdown because Superman sees Red Hood and doesn't immediately haul him off to jail." seems like a 'weak' justification, when ultimately, you did eventually talk about it being story driven vs. character driven.

THAT, is your complaint ... you made a nitpick that basically sounds like a 'continuity error, continuity error, I read the comic good!" thing, but it's more about just seeing characters shoe horned into situations you don't feel they would be acting out because it services the story better. Just saying, come out and say why you really don't like the book.

Ultimately, something as minor as the one panel with Superman on it would not single handedly ruin an otherwise good story ... you even said that you wouldn't have minded the Bat/Karate Kid thing if not for the sub par art ...

Anyway, one last thing I was thinking about.

What exactly would be the point of locking up Red Hood? Considering he's gone around trying to kill bad guys ... would putting him in prison [or more likely, Arkham Asylum ... if he's not deemed insane, I'm pretty sure he could at least convince enough people to get himself declared insane ... heck, he's running around killing people pretending he's Batman basically ...] Pretty much any place he's put, unless he's in solitary confinement, would be locking the fox in the hen house. If the goal of incarcerating Red Hood is to reform him, or at the very least, prevent him from killing more people, putting him in a situation with captive prey is probably not the smartest move.

Then again ... that would probably be one fun mini series or story arch ... Red Hood getting sent to prison with a bunch of B-list villains just so he can wipe them out [after getting the gangs organized and setting up a prison break, etc]. Of course, it would probably have too much in common with the whole Deathstroke 'allow himself to be arrested' story they did in GL.

Okay, I read the latest issue of Countdown last night and disappointment is setting in.

I'm still optimistic this thing is going to kick into high gear and kick butt. But we're 3 issues in and nothing worthwhile has happened. And what has happened just has me scratching my head.

Obviously, there's something silver-agey about Jimmy Olsen. So what?

YES! that's why its weak! because its not character driven like i feel, and i'm sure most would agree (except you cus you love to argue) with me! i don't understand what point you were trying to make here? "countdown is plot driven so its okay for them to make these kinds of blatant character ####-ups"? that makes ZERO sense! you can have a plot driven story without messing up the characters. seriously, please explain this to me.

the superman thing is not the only reason countdown sucks. it's one of many reasons i have already listed for why countdown sucks. how many reasons does a person need for why countdown sucks?


1. the superman thing (out of character characterizations or just plain bad characterizations)
2. the art
3. it's boring
4. recycling scenes from other books
5. lame monitor subplot (main plot?) and to a lesser degree: monitors with guns
6. slow plot development...nothing happens!
7. WW3 type writing

and that's all i could think of off the top of my head without getting out the individual issues. seriously, what else do you want from me?

i think you answered your own question.

wow, that sounds pretty cool. character driven even. heh. :classic:

David Goyer's trying to get a live action movie made about Green Arrow being locked in prison with all the villains he took down--which is kind of odd to me, really, because you're taking away the one identifiable characteristic Green Arrow has and pitting him against a bunch of villains with all their identifiable characteristics taken away. It'll be interesting, which is more than I can say for just about anything Goyer has done aside from Batman Begins.

No, what I'm saying is that if THAT is your problem, than SAY that is your problem.

While giving examples is fine ... there is a big difference between:

"Countdown sucks BECAUSE Superman doesn't go and grab Jason Todd."

and

"One of the examples of WHY Countdown sucks is Superman not going to grab Jason Todd."

My argument is NOT that Countdown doesn't suck or anything like that.

I'm just saying that Superman acts out of character [in your opinion] THEREFORE Countdown sucks does not compute. Ultimately, it's a nitpicky thing that, if the story were better, or the other character things were better, it would just have 'bugged' you instead of been a reason to slam the book. It's like saying the fact that Obi-Won is being trained by Qui Gon is the REASON that Episode One sucked.

There are a multitude of reasons that movie sucked ... but making it about such a minor plot point seems like nit picking instead of actually looking at the reasons the story doesn't work, etc.


First of all:

I'm just saying that some of the stuff didn't come out until after the podcast ... how would we know you didn't like the characterization without 'guessing' it based on not liking the scene with Supes/Red Hood? You mentioned characterization VERY quickly after the bit about Superman [although you also said that it was like a 'guide to the DCU' and was without story.]

It's not an antagonism thing ... just constructive criticism thing.

Also, I'm just nit picking ... which appears to REALLY annoy you ... irony much?

You bring up issues, especially issues where you cannot understand why that would be. Thus, I try to show how that may not be the case. And then you of course come back with how your opinion is not only unassailable, but that there is only ONE way that Superman can be "Fundamentally". We're arguing about fictional characters ... it's quite easy to write off any characterization that doesn't fit as your personal preference for that character to be "bad writing" and "mischaracterization".

It's listener feedback. I listen, I provide feedback. It's just my opinion. I'm also perfectly happy to support my opinions.

True, although I'm sure that Batman is smart enough to know what would happen if Red Hood were let loose on a prison populace. Maybe he's in a situation where he's waiting Red Hood out.

He's not the only one. I've had this happen in my personal and professional life. I understand if you have a heartfelt conviction and am arguing for it. However, picking nits just to pick nits is pretty friggin' annoying. When you go from arguing your position to arguing just to argue, that's where I check out of the conversation and, I think that Billy likely feels the same way. That's probably why he gets so annoyed.