I knew this would happen. Let me go get the thread where the Pros discuss this ad nauseum. It's about 3 years old so it might take me a bit.

Also, you do realize that resourse management in MTG is a game FLAW right?

That's why even the best pros in MTG can lose to Mana-Flood/Screw.

But don't take my word for it...I'll go find the thread with the real opinions.

BRB

CC

Interesting. Most people feel the exact opposite way.

As much as I love Vs., even I'll admit that it's just an extended math problem at times. Plenty of times you win or lose based off a formation move that you did/did not make on turn 3-4.

Magic, for all its supposed intricacies, has the "random pop" factor. There are bombs. You can rip your way out of misplays occasionally.

Vs. is pretty unforgiving in this regard, a la chess.

Insanity I say

This is 100% true, especially with the mana factor in mind. Even if you play your best, there is still a somewhat decent chance you will lose because you drew too much/not enough mana.

As promised:

In a post from 9-21-2005

I've discussed with some of the ex-Magic players that are now the best in the world at Vs about the two games. People like Nick Little, Vidi, Josh Wiitanen, etc. Keep in mind that this perspective is from a bunch of people that weren't good enough at Magic but now make thousands playing Vs. That probably skews things.

If you're among the elite in Magic, you might make money at 60% of the PTs you play in. Noone has the insane consistency that someone like Nick Little can claim. An interesting article for Wizard's site (last weeks Brian David-Marshall column) had a table with the details of all the finishes of the top players. The average finishes for the top players were in the 60s! Only one player in the top 10 had made money at every event they went to(and he skipped an event). Without the Pro Players Club, the reliability in Magic is not there.
(more on the club later)

In Vs. you can reliably do well at every event you go to. The game is that skill intensive. My team had a terrible deck for Indy, and 3 our of 4 still managed to day 2. At a Magic PT, your tournament is sometimes over as soon as you hand in the deck registration sheets. Magic has sustained a power creep over the past couple years that has made games very luck based and swingy. Vs has no such problem. As far as I know, noone has ever won back to back Magic GPs</ego-boosting> , and Magic's been around alot longer.

If there is one thing that Magic has for its top pros, its the Pro Players Club. It's nice to be guaranteed money every time you show up to a PT or a GP, and it will help take the sting out of a bad tournament. But its definitely a what have you done for me now lately type of thing. Kai Budde, the greatest magician ever to cast a spell (and still an active player), doesn't recieve anything from the Pro Players Club. Basically, the Club boils down to additional prize money from the PT that you did well at, paid out over the next events you attend.

The game mechanics in Vs are easily superior. They make for better, more skill intensive matches. If you disagree, go play the slots, you sack of luck.

The rewards for your mid level player are infinitely better. I've gotten nothing but countless worthless pins from qualifiers over the years playing Magic. Some of the most anticipated Magic tournaments (States, regionals), give out nothing but packs (and a plaque, i guess) as prizes. I play in PCQs partially because I like all the stuff you get. Playmats, Deck boxes, EA cards, shirts. A friend of mine went to a PCQ with me a week or so after learning the game. We both made t8, and I beat him in the quarterfinals. At a magic tournament, he would've gone home essentially empty. Here, he was happy that he made more money (selling stuff on ebay) than he got for getting second at states.


I definitely haven't touched on many aspects of the game. This is what I know. I don't know how each game appeals to the "kitchen table" players. However, for tournament players of all levels, Vs is definitely superior. Given the relative newness of the game, entry into the Pro Circuit is definitely much easier. The mechanics reward better players, making money more consistant. The swag for PCQs and hobby league is much better.

I'll finish by sharing that when I played Magic, I had to drop out of college because I barely had enough money to eat, let alone pay tuition. I'm now back in college, tuition paid for almost exclusively because of Vs.

So maybe I'm biased, but I Hate Magic is alot more than a -3 DEF plot twist.

Adam Prosak

There you go.

CC

Thank you for the insight into one man's opinion who (as far as I know) doesn't play VS anymore.

I wonder why that is.

Also, some of his points are irrelevant now.

Did you ever play the VS game on the DS or PSP? They had puzzles. Way hard puzzles. You had to set the right resource, recruit the right characters in the right order, and attack and play your pt's right.

As far as deck building being harder? Are you kidding me. How many years can you play blue? or any color. You gonna throw random Brotherhood characters in an x-statix deck? you just gonna throw random teams together with any other team? No, only if they have some synergy. VU/Kree makes sense.

Captain Cuba couldn't be more right about resource management.

I don't agree with formation being what makes vs better or more complex. Only when I was new was it hard. now I hardly even have to think about it.

I also think that the fact magic is still strong means nothing to it's game play. Yugioh is strong. How's that game play? Great and all skill right? Super complex? I think not.

Ok I'm not happy with this thread and I'm gonna use my power of choice to no longer pay it any mind.
-David

That's the most stupid thing I've read all week.

Brainteasers are puzzles that have answers, the simple fact is that VS doesn't have answers the way Magic does.

Both games are a series of problems. Magic has turns, VS has attacks. The complexities of VS are off the scale compared to Magic.

-Mike

Yeah, I wouldn't listen to Michael Jordan's insight about basketball either...he doesn't play anymore.

CC

I think your misconstruing a lot of concepts together.

Attacking isn't harder in magic for one. For starters if I have a creature that flies it can't be blocked. There's creatures that can't be blocked and some that don't even attack. You choose when to attack and who to block with. The longer the game goes on the easier it is to know who you want to block..Those little guys you played on the earlier turns.

Resource Management vs Mana isn't right. Getting mana screwed would be the equivalent of missing your drops. There's a point curve where you would know how many drops you should play for each turn and what are the odds of you naturally drawing into them by that turn. Magic is just whoever gets the biggest most broken character out wins. You can easily turn the game around by playing a broken character or have some bull#### card like Wrath of God.

You do need balance in VS. You don't play 40 characters the same way you don't play 40 plot twist. There's expection Avengers and 12 man Inhumans. However to slay that people just slap cards together and make a deck is bull#### and you know. You slapping in the face people that made amazing decks like Ten Team F4 toys and New School. Just to name a few. You also act like magic doesn't have resource acceleration. Could you imagine what VS would be like with a one drop like Landover Elves or whatever it's called.

Here's a post from cchugg regarding MTG:

MTG got a MAJOR rules overhaul prior to the 6th edition release. It was essentially a rules "reboot" to the game as it affected not only the "timing system" for spells being played but also how the combat phase was restructured (and tapped blocking creatures now dealt damage). The damage prevention step was totally removed from the game. Artifacts weren't considered to be "turned off" when tapped after the change as they were previously.

The two biggest changes, in regards to how I built decks "back in the day" were that mana sources could now be countered and that the life count was checked upon priority where it wasn't checked until the end of the phase previously.

These rules changes addressed "fundamental flaws" within the original rule set... most games don't pull a "reboot" unless SOMETHING was wrong with the game.


CC

Wow, what an articule. And to think there are magic players who really feal like that about VS. Amazing. This thread seems to be asking in different ways a couple of questions pertaining to vs as complicated and possibly better than magic. First I would like to say is more or less a bit more complicated than yugioh, pokemon and the child based games we have today. But the problem really in my opinion as to why people don't pick it up Is because usually if your the type of person who would play a card game, you would be already dedicated to another game by now. That is usually the case were I'm from. Everyone I tried to recruit would be to entrenched in another game to actually venture out into another tcg. As to the whole Vs being better I would have to say it all depends on who does the judging. Vs is the bastard child of magic in a way, being designed off it and all. I played both both and I would say its the same game just with a cleaned up gaming mechanic. The designers wanted a game like mTg, but not as mundane. So they just incorparated new mechanics into an old game and came up with vS. And the whole mana screwed thing can happen in versus too. Not getting your drop at the right time does the same ####.

Chess has puzzles.

I hate chess puzzles =/

um i used to play magic and i think vs is harder than magic.