So, just to clarify, bad players playing Exiles with no money to put together the deck are "not a problem"?

I mean, you can't assume availability to be an issue; if a deck can beat things every time when put together, it's a problem.

There are plenty of players who can play and devestate with the deck, it's suprisingly forgiving of mistakes. Yes, played less-optimally you may have "a chance" to beat it, but a pretty slim one.

I do tend to present things as "fact", that's me. I'm not going to apologize for it, and I have shown a willingness to change my opinion if it's proven wrong. But saying poor people and sub-optimal play let you win is NOT a good argument for letting cards not be banned, otherwise JLoA would not have been an issue (Ivy League was a VERY hard deck to play). So if you're agreeing with Tchalla that all cards can be unbanned because skilled players can "work around it", well, that's your opinion; albeit a bad one :).

First of all, the T'Challa comment was a low blow. Never compare to that thing. Second, it's obvious you are not getting what my points are.

I am not calling for unbanning anything (you're reaching). What I'm saying is we don't have a problem. What you are worried about is potential, or what could possibly happen. What I'm saying is what ACTUALLY happened, which was much a do about nothing. And you are wrong about your initial statement about my post. Just because you think there could be a problem with the deck when put together does not mean there will be a problem. People still have to play it and people still have to play it well. Until then, there is no problem. Calling for bannings/erratas is moot because there is no governing body that will sanction it. Everything from this point on is strictly house rules, as demonstrated by the two big events. NY had their banning, and SoCal didn't. They see a problem, we don't. Simple as that. Also, what you are stating in your "results" is merely regional, not representative of the whole. If you ask around here, nobody cares about Exiles or if it will ruin the game. You know why? Because nobody plays it. If nobody plays it, but it still has the potential to be a problem if played, then is it still a problem? Whatever, you can lobby all you want and rebutal whatever anyone says, until you get the left coast to follow, it'll remain a regional thing.

Look, the fact remains that a finely tuned Exiles deck will beat 95% of the decks in Modern & Silver combined...I have NO DOUBT of this and I'm an average Exiles player. Once you have the basics of the deck in hand...it becomes rote. If I cared enough to win a Wii (I own 2) I would have played Dave's version of the deck and would have X-0 the NY Event. I watched all 3 of the Exiles decks in action and quite frankly there were OBVIOUS mistakes made at every "go off" build phase. I still make mistakes after playing and goldfishing the deck ad-nauseum over the last few weeks...even with those mistakes it's only a matter of how much more -END they are losing by.

Majestic, I have no doubt you and the players you have named are BY FAR better players than I am...but when an average player is winning, and winning outright it's a problem. I'm sure the players at your event were probably better overall, but I can say that if the Exiles didn't crush your event then they were 1. Not playing an optimal build, 2. Not proficient enough with the intricacies of the deck, or 3. Bad players. There are no other explanations.

In closing you keep saying nobody cares regionally because nobody plays the deck...how would your opinion change if there was someone, a "skilled" someone, who X-0'd your event? I'm pretty sure you'd care.

CC

We had 3 eXiles decks in Silver in LA, none of them even top 8'd. American Maid who may not be the best vs player in the world went 3-3, with a build 1 card different than the one evil dave posted here, for the record Retaliater over Death of a Dream, she has however been playing since origins, qualified and played at the last PCLA, and has won City Championships at Edgeworld.

I know Riddler locked her out of PT's one game and whe couldn't finish it in time, I know Wonder Woman got on the board in time to reek havok against a poor draw, I know she didn't play flawless games but she is a good player in general as past results presented here show.

I know no one is trying to say anything negative about my wife, but I am starting to take this all a little personal.

That's the thing. To me, and to the majority of the players in our area, the game isn't cutthroat anymore. It's more casual now, no more "finding the broken deck." That mindset left as soon as high-level OP left, so nobody WOULD play it. That's my point. I'm going by facts from our event, not what could/would/should have happened. I'm going by what DID happen, and in our neck of the woods, it's not a problem.

Your initial statement supports my argument. You didn't care enough, which is what I have been saying. You would rather play a fun deck that could still compete. You also said that people didn't win because they were probably not good or didn't have an optimal build, which also supports what I was saying in that we don't have Vidi, Ryan, Jacob, Hager coming through that door. So, you do agree with me, lol?

You're right, I would probably change my position if you or Ralph, or any of the pro-level players had played the deck at our event and dominated. BUT, only if this was a PC/Worlds/$10k-level event.

Don't...I can say all of the above about myself, but when i was seated at the draft table at 10KNY a few years back with Vidi, Spooky, and a couple of other geniuses I was doomed before the draft started.

I'm sure your wife's a great player, probably better than I am, but you just said she hit a poor draw which can ruin ANY player and ANY deck. With that rational she should have been 4-2 and probably in top 8 in a very competitive field. Just taking your statement "she didn't play flawless games" I would gather that with 1 game where her draw stunk she would have been 4-2, WITH mistakes...thats telling in and of itself. Usually 1 single mistake is a wrap in a competitive game of Vs., but she was able to even that out with either the decks strength or her skill or probably a bit of both.

CC

Bro, you're talking to the King of Casual...if this is who I remember, then we played at MWNY, you played MKKO Girder against my...Superman Clones...you kinged me (boooo).

What I'm trying to say is that I hated that players even had the option to play this at our event. It narrowed the field because at least 4-5 more players didnt play because of Exiles...even just 3 decks being there. I want an errata/ban/fix of some sort so that when someone says "Lets have a Tourney during Blank-Con and lets make it modern" we dont have to worry about the foregone conclusion that Exiles will win.

I like preserving what we have left. But as long as you have prizes of any value, the best deck will show. Case in point...if there was a 40k modern tourney tomorrow...what would you run if you had access to all cards?

Also keep in mind that because of geography you have a more isolated group. We have 5-6 different groups from different states that only have to drive 3-4 hours to attend any future events. If it were say my crew and OSM's crew...I know I could call him and say "No Exiles...cool?" The same could be said of your group given proximity, etc.

Think of it this way...lastchance dumped his own money into the event and could have had at least $150 more dollars in entries just based on the fact that Exiles was present.

CC

It's What CC says; it's fine and all to say that if not used in an unfair way, there's no need for Blink. But if they're not playing it in your group, they won't miss it, or mind the errata. The same can honestly be said for plenty of banned cards (Detective Chimp, Dr. Light; hell, even Arctic Research Base)... had they been used fairly and in decks that liked but didn't abuse them, there would have been no need for banning. That's where I brought up the "Tchalla logic"; I mean, to this end he's right... if you play casually and fairly, there's no such thing as a broken card. If you don't target opposing characters, overload is fine as well, same basic concept.

I'm arguing that from a macro level, you have to assume people are "rich jerks". Similar to Captain Cuba, Atlanta had several players that said they wouldn't play in our "farewell VS" Silver Age if Blink was legal; so we just banned her. And from your perspective, I don't think you should want to face the possibility that someone gets the deck together and learns the engine; that can ruin a playgroup.

At first I read that and was like..."Jerk sometimes...rich...ummm no." then I reread it correctly.

I'm trying to get an event day going here in NJ. There is NO WAY IN HELL I'm allowing Blink...I want as many people to show as possible. If that makes a couple of Exiles players go...then so be it, I'm thinking about the greater good.

CC

Making Blink a recruit effect should take care of some of the problems but not all of them. You see part of the problem would be solved (the extra shift counters), but that would generate another problem (in my eyes at least). Thing is that by doing it as a recruit effect she would lose her flavor. I mean a shift character that only works when recruited? That would cripple the team rather than control them. Look at Nocturne for example, she has a good ability that fits well with Proteus and Mimic but it is limited to a recruit effect so she sees like 0 play, thus her having Shift is totally useless. I think that making her effect go off if you have not controlled any character named Blink will still make her useful in a Shift deck while not taking the shifty goodness out of her.

I talked about this in Vs. System.org and I feel that cards like Warp Shards and Beak Saves the Day are a HUGE part of the problem.

Warp Shards is a good card that does bad things cause even without Common Bond in an Exiles deck it can potentially remove a(all) defender(s). I don't really think that was the intent of the card and if it was then it should be limited to once per turn or something like that. It's absurd that an opponent gets to keep the resource points he spent on a characters recruitment for the next turn if the game is going to end before that. What's the point?

Beak Saves The Day is a card that should really be limited to the combat phase. Once this is done Blink and Mariko will not be doing all that damage that they are currently causing. Heck you do this and there might not be a need for Blink to get an errata, as you would be depending clever Proteus and Panoptichron activations or on Clash of Worlds to get extra Blinks, and that just isn't as reliable because you want A Finer World to search out for characters and not locations. Then of course the choice would be either Blink or Mariko as potential targets for Clash of Worlds.

I also feel that with Beak Saves the Day limited to the combat phase a bunch of interesting card interactions will begin to see play. There are so many things that can be done that it's ridiculous, yet people don't try to use them because they are blinded by the sheer power of a 4th turn kill thats almost inevitable.

This are just some of the things I feel towards the Exiles. We need to limit the way the deck is currently played while not crippling it.

eh just hit 1's, 2's, and 3's with your Riddler and you'll be fine.

Only 1 of those was an optimized build and it wasn't played the best it could have been, from what I saw. Nobody is saying AM is a bad player but it's likely other people play that deck better. *shrug*

This is my point:

So why is no one complaining about Quicksilver any more?

I'll be back to explain this for those who missed the 1st season on DVD.

Because Crisis rotated out and 12-man gets beat by Miguel.

CC

CC sort of has the right answer.

Any other takers?