Tank drop DOES have a little more flexibility given some situations. When Dust Storm hits the field TD will have a far greater reach than any mech.

I'd have to agree with Trev though in that neither one or the other is king of the hill at the moment. And once the Kelswas get retired I think TD will pale in comparison to the power mechs field. But looking at Nats where the top 8 had 4 mech armies and 4 mechless (all Kelswa TD?) armies ... I'd say they are about on par. Of course ... the fact that all the mech armies got knocked out in round one of the last day should say something. Heh. :)

The age old debate TD V.S. Mech, it will never end I guess... Both have merits and demerits, both have their place in the game and certainly both are powerful and flexible, but really with the advent of retiring cheap transports and the rising cost of tanks worthy to be dropped, WK is balancing things as we know it. When LIAO retires the only cheap 3 cap transport we have are the Garrots (well I wouldn't be putting my big egg in here now would I ??!!) next to them would be the R10 transports which all sport a 45pts or more cost tag. Basically to have a nice fat TD and its formation support you are giving up at least 300pts as compared to 200pts from before. Since Zahns are more or less 20 pts cheaper than R10s. Advantages of the new R10s, they don't get scrapped that easily (more clicks of life) they are usually armored (SC R10s are tough) doesn't salvage after 5 clicks (you are at least assured your cargo gets to where it's supposed to go) BUT all of them have 8 speed only. Mechs on the other hand can far out maneouver a TD+formation (this has been confirmed already) It takes 3 orders to reset a TD, whereas it only needs 1 order to move a mech. TD outpwers most mechs in terms of sheer firepower and hitting %. The only mechs who can dish out uber pain are pulse equipped mechs (CNC nova cat, Duke, Grinder, 9-ball, Persuader+pulse gear etc) The only viable tanks as of to date are the SH behemoth, Merc Kelswa and to some funny extent the SH aesir. Most formations are either paired with cheap TGR or to some extent Sniper teams.

To say that a mech has more firepower than a tank drop is quite debatable but leaning in favor of TD, to say that a tank drop is more flexible than a mech is very much false in my opinion. It has been stated before in different threads and in different discussions as to why a mech is more flexible than a TD+formation so no need to repeat.

To me TD has its power, mechs have their flexibility it evens things out for the both. Given a mech based army versus a TD+formation army placed in the same capable hands, the outcome can only be decided by the vagaries of the dice, he who hits first is 99% given the advantage.

But it always seems that people who tend to play more solidly and more flexibility often employ mechs in their tactics, whereas people who want solid power and straight hitiing capabilities would always play mechless. This in my opinion is based on player preferences not advantage over disadvantage.

I know I'm late to the party but since I've written this I may as well post it. Hehe....

I think we are at cross-purposes here. I'm not sure we are all definining versatility the same way.

You describe giving 100%+ of your (non-Command) orders to 40% of your force. Command is not cheap. So you pack yourself to the gills with Bannsons Sprints? That relies totally on luck. It may be fairly predictable but you still cannot be certain which four out of every nine turns in which you won't have an extra order.

My point about 'Mechs is that with one order they can achieve more than any other unit type. They can also do a lot of things. Harass, assault, shoot, close combat, assist in capture attempts (Oh yes they can), move faster than anything else on the board (except a Sprint) and soak up damage.

A tank drop can only do one thing. Drop and shoot. Two orders. And after that if your opponent is ready the tank is trapped. Sure it means you have two points of attack and the component parts of your 200 point monster can be broken up, unlike a 'Mech. Sure they can absorb more damage across the group.

They also inflict less damage and once deployed they lose most of their mobility. They are less order-efficient. They are slower (once dropped) to respond to a changing front. When facing a 'Mech, your opponent can use one order to evade you and they still have two orders spare to use elsewhere. A transport-heavy army doesn't.

And after 1 click of damage, Sprint Command is lost. After two, the Clowns are dead. Which brings me back to Mizerama's post.

And you can't counter Caustic/Sub-Zero every time. Let's suppose the tournament has four rounds. You take Dust Storm, Perfect Day and Desert Wasteland (the only counters to Caustic and/or Sub-Zero). You face an opponent who has 'Mechs with short ranges and high vent values and whose 'Mechs are backed up by Battle Armor. He's brought Perfect Day, Caustic and Sub-Zero. Previous round he played a blank. If you till have Perfect Day you play it against him. But suppose you and he both had already used that card. 50% of the time you'll be OK and be playing in a Desert or a Dust Storm. But 50% of the time you'll be in either a Caustic Desert or a Sub-Zero Dust Storm.

You cannot just waive off either Caustic or Sub-Zero. They almost make the Killer Clowns unplayable.

This bit, by the way, is responding to the assertion that the infantry can be detached from the tank as an independent entity and dropped separately. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Thought I'd read it through properly before posting too. Darn.

There is no tank available that does more than 5 damage, which Persuader and Grinder beat without Pulse and several other mechs can match. In terms of hit % and firepower, Black Rose's 13+4d6 7 damage MDFA is pretty ungodly, but suffers from even more restrictions than does a tank drop.

The RotS Kelswa is a bit of a dark horse. Sure, no armor, but it teams up with the H TGR and H Sniper Team just peachy and has the potential (probably unused) of abusing the RotS/Liao SA for an unstoppable formation drop.

Guys,

What are we debating the essence of armies ?

An army comprises of pieces that have 1 goal to win.

To win be able to hit def. 23/24 decoy, score VC3, deal with caustic/sub-zero.

With the introduction of Firepower, the meta game has shifted dramaticly. More so because of the new PCC's. To me that is worrying.

Let me explain.

TD used to rule because it had range over everything, accuracy and reliance. With AoD Mechs can be nasty again. This was BEFORE the AoD ruleset.

I once described the metagame as the following :

TD beats Mech.
Mech beats Pog.
Pog beats TD.

The basics are still fundamentaly true.

However, we can now destroy support or even a Inf. army with 2 PCC's. This means that even for TD you can ruin someones support real easy real nasty.

Now al these archtypes have support and need it.

In order for Mechs to defeat TD, the TTL would be sublime. To counter this TD will also use TTL etc etc. To me it made for an interesting gamebalance. People mixed the variants to find an army that works (at least in the eyes of the army designer)

If I know that say 60 % of my opponents will use TD, then adding pog elements is logical. Now I tend to try to find an alternative way to solve these problems. That is why at last worlds Mr Pringles and I came with the flying TD with massive Inf. support.

It would wreck Arnis or the Liao Targe, which we expected to see the most. Kava was to rare at the time to be expected.

Now with AoD and Firepower after ECC and Nationals (US, UK, Aussie, German, Italy and Dutch) we can see some new patrons settling.

1) Firepower is still not ripe, I mean that people have not yet fully grasped the impact certain pieces have and can do. This is what can be used as an advantage. Take Rearly army in the UK Nationals. I bet that most didnt know how tough it would be and such uncertainty helps.

2) Support can be killed by PCC's, Whatever I end up playing the knowledge that I can kill ATV's for free at least 2 matches means a unprecedented shift in power. Gaining VC3 which I consider vital in reaching top 8. Is uncertain with ATV's more certain with Shamash.

3) TD Kelswa, will be the most favourite built to beat. No matter what the debates hold, it is a consistent army that preformed well in most of the nationals. So it is the army to beat. That means design something that can at least beat that.

It doenst like Pog and it doesnt like sub-zero. It can deal with First Strike by unloading and being AA.

Now take all this in consideration, or as Japanese general once said. Look at the army remember its significance and forget about the rest.'

4) Hvy Mechs and Assaults , I consider them to expensive certainly if my support could die on me without my enemy needing to take action. You can "proof"your support but rarely do you have the points to take care of it anyway. An unsupported Mech will lose to easy. I assume that most veterans agree without needing to explain it all over again.

Still Rearly and Trevor made some designs that have good merit. Duing the ECC I also saw HvY's wiith minimal support who ended up killing ATV's protecting 2 A4's and do nothing else. Yes you can win that way but it is passive play and in the end that loses out to Pog.

5) I see little true pog armies in any of the Nationals that i know of. that means 2 minimum but ussualy 3 to 4 pieces. Many said it would return, I will tell you this they kick TD easy.

6) First strike is a element of an army. It is not anymore the gamebreaker it once was and most include at least 1 BR sprint and lots of people 2.

I prefer to play "total war" it relates to how the Dutch played soccer during the 1974 Worldcup where all players defended and all players attacked it was called "total soccer".

I play with what most consider an complete support army without a hvy hitter. It benefits in my hands that it acts like water. I can concentrate where I want it to attack whatever I want. Oh and I tend to attack. I dont defend.

Unfornatly the army is dead........

Now I am looking at other armies, long live the new army.

Regards
Elite130

PS I can't resist, to set it straight Brinxter was wrong in the presented scenario he needed a 14 to hit me att 11+called shot on def 23. I was targeting his big mech and a hellion (on which I needed a 8 or 9 and I did hit it) in order to win I only needed to kill the hellion as at that point i was behind 80ich points. If i killed the hellion 110isch I would win. So yes I took a risk but otherwise I would lose for certain. My Inf. managed to kill the Hellion later on. Unfortnatly for me Esperanza went shutdown. So He was lucky trice, crit hit on the first shot, 15 on the pulse and bad dice on my heat.

Aint that so Brinxter ?

Again no Jedi mind tricks where used in this piece :grin:

yeah, you are right...
still placing hot little esperanza that close to my nova cat (who was in water) was a big risk
:cheeky:

@AtlasBoy. The M Zahn .... while being the standard for the past ... what ... year +? Is IMHO, overrated. At least now that FI has arrived. When I built my army I specifically kept TD in mind. Kaminari w/Celina outranges normal TD and can salvage a M Zahn with one shot ... thus leaving the tank alive but leaving the Shiro far outside of it's 14" range so it can't retaliate ... thus neutralizing it to a great extent. I was actually worried more about:

ROT + LI Zahn and ALL of he R10s, because 5 AP damage won't salvage them.

When the Zahn gets retired, yes the TD range will decrease .. but it will still outrange most mechs and it will be far more durable.

The big question is ... when the Kelswa gets retired ... will any new tanks be produced that will adequately fill the TD roll?

Personally I'm hoping for no tanks any worse than the DF Tokugawa. Annoying lil bugger ... but not devastating.

The DF R10 has move of 10, one lower than the Merc Zahn. So TD range drops by 1". So yes, TD remains viable.

As for post Kelwsa tanks...
There is the BR DI Morgan (3/12 4 dam 9IT).
The Hanse MBTs (4/14 5AP with 9attack or the SW with best click of 6Strk 10 attack)
SwordSworn Mars and its 2/14 5dam 10attack.
So TD will be here for some time as long as cheap command can be fielded. Its more of when the Clowns and Sprint go away, how many people are willing to invest 40+ per command roll?

After January when Liao and Counter go away, the competitive armies are (IMHO) going to look very different than they do today.

As elite said, hitting a 23/24 decoy will be key because of the Nova Cats (mech). Which plays to artillery of some sort since to get high attack IT is extremely expensive. Or a little reversion to Charging to negate the Decoy. JF DFAs will be common as well. For 149 I can get a 10" 12 attack DFA for 5 (JF GosHawk + Pilot). TD will still fit this bill.

Survibility in CA or SZT.... A minor factor with VC3s runners (ATVs/Sprints) going away. TGs and Sniper teams will still feel the burn but those 2 PCCs will lose some bite when ATVs vanish.

VC3. This is the big swing. No longer can you overload your opponants DZ on Turn 1. High def VTOLs also are missing (No HL Shun or Donars). 1-2 VC3 points will win games. Return of the Saxon Drop?

And I would add to this list Reactive/Hardened Armor.
Artillery with Range > 22" and Armor Piercing (non-SU)
SS Paladin
HL Hadur (Single target)
JF Hadur (picks it up after 2) (Single target)
SH Sniper (Single target)
SC Long Tom (Single Target)
SH Long Tom (Picks it up after 2)
JF Long Tom

Only 2 artillery will have dual target and non single use armor piercing from the start. Given the in-accuracy of artillery, relying on SU armor piercing is foolish. Some of the new infantry artillery might see some action out of a transport but thats points and orders.

Thats just my extra spin on the future army builds.

fox

Errrrr i am talking on PRESENT army builds not future ones.

I admit that narsistic as it is I am looking towards Worlds 2005.

Anything past that is past that. :cool:

Fox's analysis isn't bad but if we're talking future there's Annihilation to worry about. And what PCC will that set bring? If we got SZT and CA this set (and these are a Swordsworn A4 to a DF Thumper in terms of a step up) what we gonna get next set? Something targeting all speed mode tracked? wheeled? VTOLs?

Incidentally, if pog beats TD, what about 'Mechs?

Just for a moment consider a 23" AO with Concussion. Or a 20" AO with Pulse. One stops you dropping, the other eliminates transport and contents in one order.

Before you point out TD outranges these ... not all TDs have Streaks ... terrain placement is a crucial element to defeating tank drop.

Kotch Meta game wise is what I was talking. These are not absolutes.

Mech can beat anything under the right cirumstances as can TD etc etc.

And I stated metagame formula before the Shiro's so maybe it is Mech except AO ranges 23 and up.

If you read absolutes in this then there will be a neverending discussion.

If you find I am wrong in general then please put your case here.

And I wish people would stop wondering about PCC's and new figures before they are available.

I will deal with them when I at leat know their stats, tillthat time I see it as wastefull speculation.

I wish I was sleeping.

Regards
E130

1) I feel that Tank Drop does not lose as much of its versatility/usability once it is deployed. You imply that it is easy to destroy once I have deployed. Your 'Mech is limping, and the rest of your force can only possibly consist of two support pieces and a few ATVs (BR Sprint/JF Fenrir, SSw AIV, a BA Formation), "Chikako" has a 4 damage 11IT attack atm, say...one click away from only 2 damage, but I'm just guessing. That's a required 13IT for a modified 3 damage (next turn you get your face blown off by the Kelswa). Literally, your counter-attack will HAVE to consist of you moving "Chikako" and placing Artillery pogs, or simply nothing. Exactly how will 2 damage stop my Tank Drop? If you use AP (SS AIV), not only will you make it easier for my Artillery to destroy your own, but 2 Damage won't really matter after I load up the next turn, or the turn after. That's not including what my support can do, as a 'Mechless force can afford a LOT more support than a force with a 'Mech. Technically, support should be added to the term "Tank Drop", because it DOES allow for a lot more versatility. This brings me to another point: my Kelswa is not the only thing that can pick your 'Mech apart after the Drop. My TGRs still are in Range (unless the 'Mech Assaulted the Kelswa, which would make absolutely no sense, it would be nearly impossible to hit), and in Formation or single-fire can still be effective against the 'Mechs lowered. A JF Fenrir/BR Oni/BR Sprint drop can also follow up effectively. Artillery can keep you moving afterwards and not allow you an effective counter attack against my support, but should not be part of the equation as it should be effectively canceled by your opponent's Artillery or otherwise annoying tactic.

2) The Killer Klowns are filler. Tank Drop armies do not have to rely on the Command SE to be effective. Sure, it's nice, but it's the same kind of nice in every army. More accurately, you should be stating that those PCs are very detrimental to ATVs and TGRs that seem to be omnipresent in Tank Drop armies. However, I would have to say I disagree that the PCCs used against 'Mechs can be compared to the ones used against Tank Drop. The PCCs used against 'Mechs can sometimes make that 250-290 point investment outright useless. The PCCs used against Tank Drop, Caustic Atmosphere and Sub-Zero Temperatures, don't do quite the same thing. Sure, they CAN destroy parts of your opponent's army, but they aren't an End All. Not only does it have a lot of luck included, but it actually isn't as effective as you want it to be, and especially not compared to the anti-'Mech PCCs. I had Caustic Atmosphere and Sub-Zero Temperatures (twice) dropped on me in the Constructed portion, and even though they went off a few times, they never exceeded four clicks of damage (the average amount of "hits" I feel is around 3), and I don't feel that it made enough of an impact on the game as a whole. My ATVs are SUPPOSED to be dead by turn 8. But yeah, they DO help 'Mechs, especially Sub-Zero.

Guys to much detail in the discussion means, GO PLAY EACH OTHER :p

Ok I am going to sleep now.