Here's an idea ... after the Legend sets, put focus on the main characters of each team.

I.e. the set after Marvel Legends would be:

"Spider-Man VS. The Synister Six"

or something like a comic book cover would be.

I.e.

Main Hero [or hero team] Vs. Main Villain [or villain team].

Use the word "Vs." as it's intended ... the fact that it enables you to enact comic book warfare of Team Vs. Team or Character Vs. Character ... including fantastic crossovers between other characters.

Go the WoW route of having starters with Vanguards. The Essential collections/starter decks should also hopefully be tied to films as well.

Think of Spider-man 3 hitting theaters and having a starter deck that shows Spider-Man having to face off against Sandman, Harry Osborne and Venom looming in the background.

And in addressing the complexity of the game ... the vanguards can be starting places ... giving players a strategy to build around [not necessarily an alternate win condition, but basically saying "this is what this team is good at doing, do as much of this as possible, and you'll be doing good"]

I honestly like your idea A LOT.
VS really needs something radical right now.

The engine is great, the comic license is obviously great, so it would be a damn shame to see this game go down without ever fulfilling its true potential.

BTW, the OP structure we got in Europe - which is similar to the one you're getting, just without decent HL support - almost completely killed the game here in Italy.
That's why I'm really really worried right now.

In Atlanta, we do a Draft every Thursday night. We get a break on pricing, but it's not a lot. There are no pack prizes. The EAs that are handed out there are left over from my old store's Hobby League EAs.

The first week we did this at the new store (which was early December) and sold through the box of Legion the store owner said "I've made more money on Vs tonight than I have in the past four months."

Since we've had regular drafts there, the number of players has increased from "barely having 4" to "regularly have over 8". The venue owner's attitude towards Vs has greatly improved. It's to the point that I can actually broach the topic of holding larger events there to him without having him laugh in my face and say "No thanks because that'll cut into my UFS tournaments."

OP doesn't have to mean "money, EAs, playmats and deck boxes". Sometimes it means being able to get a regular group of people together to play a game. For me, I'd be happy if I were able to show up on a regular night and be assured that there would be enough folks around to get a decent game of Vs together. Fortunately for me, that regular night is Draft Club Night (aka Thursday).

But, realise that if you don't support a store (by buying packs and/or boxes at the store), the store will not provide space for you to play. If they don't make any money of a product, there's no vested interest in them providing play space to people. Play space is pretty important if you want to play with more than your circle of friends. I don't know about you, but I love playing against new players with new ideas and the more the better. I support my local game store and encourage everyone else to do the same. If you don't want to support your local game store, you don't get to complain about "not having anyone in your area to play against" because your actions contributed to the problem.

There has always been that hobby leaguer who complains about a pro bringing the best deck and completely whooping ###, and now that's going to be more prevalent then ever. Hell, we even had a shop around here close for that(high voltage vs greg's , winner hi-v). Now without seperation of new players and pros, pros that stick around will probably use hobby league as a testing hub and for the most part scare off these new guys you're trying to get into the game. Before we could wait for pcqs as our testing ground, now, guess we'll smash against mono ff and straight avengers decks for testing.

Edit: Btw, people always reference pros making it harder for casual players, but never talk about the reverse. I could easily see the casual players revolting against the pros for bringing better decks or playing more intent on winning. This isn't a problem though is it, seeing as they supposedly provide the most income.

What?

Yes, my family as I grew up and all my friends' families (where we played until we moved out) had a dining room table (for adult dinners) and a kitchen table (for family dinners). Since the dining room was the "nice room," we played on the kitchen table (or the floor).

Now that we live on our own, we eat on our card table.

Kim has a kitchen table, but we mostly play on the dining room table.

It just pisses me off that they couldn't have done this more gradually. Like instead of four PCs per year just have one or two supported with 3-5 50k's and in the place of $250 pcq prize just offer product. Don't just cut everything pretty much all at once.

If stores charge an excessive ammount for cards, I can't be blamed for exploring options; so please, stop blaming me.



I happily meet new people at the gaming stores. We then go somewhere to play. It's not like they live there.

You're confusing Hobby League with City Championships. I envision City Championships as being PCQ-level competition. The only difference is who runs it, and the prize structure. I mean, I guess you can also show up to the Hobby League and beat up on all the jank if you want to be a jerk, but the City Championship is separate from Hobby League; it just happens to be sent in the same box.

This thought process is absolutely false. Any profitable store owner will tell you that casual play is what drives sales. I even have customers that come in, buy a pack, get hlep with a deck, play a few games, but a card that helps their deck and then leaves. I may not see that guy for another week...maybe two weeks. But that customers doesn't bat an eye at a single price when he comes back in.

There are several people that play different games in my store knowing they can't attend events because or work, family, school, or whatver, but they still show up regularly during the week to play.

Make of it what you will, but MANY casual players don't have a huge interest in organized play. Most of them are just happy to have a place to purchase product and play.

What amazes me more than anything is that many competitive players feel that it's their right to have a place to play and that they should be catered to with their $5 entry fee once a week. The reaility is that their entry fee is nice, but the store could do without it just fine. That same store would change their tone and feelings toward you if you bought some sleeves, a booster pack and a soda once a week.

While I applaud UDE’s efforts to keep putting money into the game, I think these changes will pretty much end the VS game system. UDE has this belief that they will be able to create some casual player base for the game but the truth of the matter is most casual players are not casual by choice. They embrace that label because they are not good enough to compete on the professional level. You may hear cries of “We play because we love the art” or “we play because it is fun to be Spidey” but honestly every one of those people want to think that they have shot at the big money. But this game is so complex, that for most of the players, this is simply not a reality for them. And I speak from personal experience here.

I just got back from TDC draft camp. I consider myself lucky to be on this team because they are all very good friends of mine and I had the presence of mind to listen to Doug Tice when he approached me about forming the team. I had just made my 2nd top eight so I had credentials. But honestly, I am nowhere in their league. The amount of work that people like Tice, MJ and Hager put into this game is amazing. I watched over the weekend as they continually broke down the Legions set into archetypes and made a draft order list. How they were able to change picks on the fly based on reading packs and what was being passed to them. I listened as they had discussions on what the 29th, 30th card in their builds would be like little surgeons. Me? I was lucky to fill my curve and have at least two combat pumps. My point is that it takes a tremendous amount of effort to even understand this game at a basic level. Compound that immensely if you want to compete at a pro level.

And let’s be honest, the majority of players are pretty dumb. That is why Magic and WoW appeal to them. Both are relatively easy games to pick up and play. Yes, there are certain aspects of both games that require some thought, but for the most part, you play a resource, recruit a dude, and turn that dude sideways and hope for the best. And both games have the trait that Vs will never have. Simple fun. No face down resource row that you have to manage along with your hand. No formation step that destroys a good 75% of the player base because they do not know how to form their guys correctly. No ability to effectively play any character at almost every level thus compounding the complexity of deck building. I just don’t see any way to capture a casual market with such a complex game. The game was designed by professional players for professional players. It’s just that simple.

So, what do we can we do? We are faced with somehow catering to a small base of professional players and making things easier or more interesting to the player that cannot compete professionally. What type of products would keep those types of players going? Raid sets like the Onyxia Raid boxed sets? Those seem cool. But how could we drive pack sales? Why not include a Raid type game subset in the packs? Why not include a subset in the packs? Instead of having a 220 card set, why not have a 150 card set catered to your tournament players and a 70 card subset with some kick ### raid encounter? Casual players get “fun” cards and competitive players get new tournament cards. Casual players obviously get the most benefit here. They get cards created specifically for them as well as access to tournament level cards if they want to make an effort to get more out of the game. There could even be storyline cards that do certain things under certain circumstances. It could be something as simple as KO Magneto and Prof X to recruit Onslaught. There could be cool “Vanguard” cards in the sets that give you specific team bonuses. If you want to appeal to comic book readers, maybe give away neat prize cards in the packs that give you a year subscription to your favorite Marvel or DC title. Maybe have some sort of game changing effect for say only having the original FF team in your deck. Hell, I’d play for fun just for things like this. There are all kinds of neat things that can be done like this. Of course, it is going to take a lot of marketing effort.

What about the cash payouts for pros? I understand that we can’t continue with the current system. Too much money, for too few players, with not enough sales. I’d like to see something like four seasons, maybe two 25ks each season (one constructed, one sealed with new set release) and then one big Worlds tournament. I am not sure what the budget is but let’s say it’s 400k. We could have a 200k world’s tournament and eight 25ks. The 25ks could be the only way to qualify for the Worlds tournament for professiona players. There could be some sort of invite giving out to the top casual format player nationally also. Hell, there could even be a golden ticket award giving out each year in a booster pack. That has got to be a pretty healthy marketing tool. TOs could run the 25ks along side their YuGiOh events to make sure they are not losing money on venues. Are there enough North American ShoenJump tournaments to make this feasible? Are we able to go back to the ComicCon tournaments with more of an emphasis of capturing comic fans?

I will follow up later on what you can do for your local store if your shop owner isn’t being helpful. I don’t want this game to go away. I love it so much. I am sure a lot of you feel the same way. I know a lot of you are willing to do a lot to ensure its growth. We may just need to organize our efforts a bit.

Where are you located again? I would love to come to your store. I'll even buy a couple packs and a soda. ;)

Maybe it's just at the places I shop.

I've never met a casual player (ie, someone who doesn't play in anything for prizes) who plays in a store.

The people who play in stores want to win a prize.

Or are you defining "Casual" as something else...?

If there is no PC, then ratings don't matter ... than HL can be casual.

At the same time, many of the MOST competitive players seem to be leaving ANYWAY.

There should hopefully be alternatives given to qualifying for the PC to avoid 'predators' showing up at Hobby League looking for nothing but ratings bumps.

However, part of the reason people want the PCQs is for the competitive experience ... and if that comes to the City Championships is that a bad thing for them?

Still, they've been suprised by the reaction to the loss of the PCQ ... so there may be some kind of qualifying 'structure' put back with modified prize support. Between sets, when there is no Release Celebration or City Championship going on ... they could have the 'special monthly event for Hobby League' be a qualifier of sorts [although if they don't go with points it would be "top X get qualified automatically" much like the Amateur Championships or LCQs, etc.]

UDE should try to do more advertising in comics, in movies. They need to target more comic fans. Comic conventions UDE should be there with a demo team and some free stuff to entice new blood.

When I used to play magic they used to have constructed decks, I dont know if they still do? But UDE should start to make those for the new or casual player. Not the starters they make now. Starter decks that new guys can take to a tourney or event and have fun with and maybe even win a game or two.