I guess I'm spoiled and go to schools where there's always been a gaming population.


I suppose I'll stop discussing it now, as I have no right to speak. :(

This post probably isn't needed, but let me show you some math so that we can drop the online discounter v. hobby store discussion.

Approx retail on Vs Boosters = $3.99 ($95.76 per box).

Let's assume that both vendors get a similar price. I know they don't, because tehre are a lot of variables (more than most of you are aware of), but let's assuem it's within $5 so that the price isn't all that important.

Online discounter's price = $60 (roughly 38% discount)

Hobby Store price = $80 (roughly 17% discount)

The thing you guys are forgetting is that 20% difference in price is significant. First of all, the online discounter is going to have a volume of sales that the hobby retailer won't ever reach. So, they can ignore the lower profits, because there it's not as relevant for them. The hobby store has to be able to show a profit after selling 10-12 boxes (if they are lucky) of one set.

Store is another issue. Many online stores (that are independent of hobby stores) are out of someone's living quarters or a small warehouse. This means there is no rent cost. And that the online discounter also doesn't have the water, electricity, inspections, etc.etc. that come with owning a retail location.

Something you guys forget about also is taxes. Hobby stores pay federal, state, and local taxes on inventory and sales. Online discounters can easily cheat their inventory numbers and they can get by paying taxes because alot of sales are done out of state which come in tax free. And remember those taxes also go to help your communities.

But, the local hobby stores are also paying employees and paying taxes and/or insurance on these folks as well. That's usually another major cost that online discounters don't have.

The extra money you spend at your local store goes to a lot of different places. Your local hobby store isn't trying to rob you blind.

Most of the people the distribute UDE stuff like allince, Gameboard (now Blackhawk) all want to see pictures of a store front before they set anything up with you. There is just ways around it, which is sad for those people that run stores.

And while some places charge $80-10 for a box, places like Comicbook world in Cincinnati only charge $72 or so when you preorder (less before UDE up the prices) while not the same as the $59 plus shipping that you see on Ebay, it's still not that much when you look at Magic boxes, or even YuGiOh for a short time. And Magic was around a very long time, and prices never stopped them when they started.

For the record, I meet with a buddy at the local store most Tuesday nights. There's no official prize support, no official (or even unofficial) tourney - just two guys who turn up to play each other, always holding out a little speck of hope that maybe someone in the Yu-Gi-Oh crowd that plays on the same night, will look over and think "Hey! I'll give THAT a try!"

You have the right to speak.

However the whole 'don't complain' thing came up because SOME people were talking about how it's impossible to get Hobby Leagues and other people were talking about "why should I pay higher prices?"

We were pointing out why that was. Just because there are a few specific cases where people can play without a store doesn't mean that they have to go out of business because online vendors can undersell them.

No, I don't forget about any of it. I know it.

I CHOOSE to not participate in it. Just like I shop at Wal-Mart instead of a smaller more expensive store. It's unpopular, but it's my right to do so without being berated for it.

It could be a delusion from the other TCG that UD runs... yu-gi-oh. In yugioh a majority of all cards are purchased by casual players, not pros. Professional yugi players as far as i know never buy anything because of the nature of the game. Yugi sets are so terrible that usually only one 1 or 2 cards out of each set is actually playable competively. However the sets by themselves are great for casual use. Yugioh gears itselfs towards kids so therefore they have a much bigger casual market.

They could be simply trying to drive this into the VS market as well, however as Dave pointed out above, VS is a far more complex game then anything else. Although I am a casual gamer, (both because i think the game is fun and i suck) i will most likely continue to buy only sets that interest me.... meaning well known superheroes doing battle with well known villians.

I mean look at it this way.... casual players bring in money, pro players take money. I suspect that all sets from this day forward will ONLY be popular characters to appeal to the casual crowd. Teams will become easier and new mechanics will be toned down a lot. UD makes money from selling cards and they just simply aren't selling now.

Personally i blame the last 3 sets for everything that has transpired. (DCR, MHG and DLS). Unheard of, unknown teams and characters just kept new players uninterested. With spidey and batman coming back (assuming the teams dont suck like DLS) i suspect casual play will come back a little. And maybe a local 50K down here in L.A with a few months notice may drive some new people to start playing.

Your original post. I replied saying "Retail isn't excessive. It's what stores need to charge to stay in business. If your store closes, you may not be able to find new players."

The point is "If you don't support local game stores, you don't get to complain about not having players to play against or places to play at". You likely don't realise that there are people who play the game who aren't in college (and therefore don't belong to college clubs). Game stores were the original social networking hub for gamers before the Intarweb came along (and are still a pretty damned good place to find like minded gamer types). However, they aren't free. You have to support them or they go out of business. Personally, I find it really handy to have a good game store with friendly owners located close to me. Because of that, I support that store with direct purchases and indirect assistance.

If you don't think having a game store near you is a good thing, don't feel like you're obligated to buy cards there. But you don't get to complain when your players move away and you can't find an opponent anymore (because you didn't support the place where the majority of new players get introduced to Vs. . . the local game store).

That's my point.

And that is exactly why Hobby Leagues and City Championships may be hard for you to find. There's a direct correlation.

Honestly, this isn't going to affect my playgroup in the least. We're 100% casual, playing mono-team or goof-off decks, lots of multi-player and splitting a few boxes each time a new set comes out. Heck, there have been PCQs in our city and most of us didn't bother showing up because we dislike the competitive environment.

We're going to keep buying cards, playing games and having fun until UDE decides to stop printing them (though set quality influences how much we buy). It's a fine excuse for friends to get together, have a good time and laugh when someone pulls off an insane combo - just the other day we got to see someone play 9-drop Ion!

The bottom line for me: competitive or casual, if you love the game you won't care if UDE rewards you for playing. The play itself is the reward. But that's just the opinion of a guy who plays pure Negative Zone, Ratcatcher/Evasion Burn and Doomless Doom (go Zorba!). :)

Have a good one!
Jay

You, sir, could not be more wrong. You could try. But you would fail.

My entire playgroup is casual by choice. Not a one of us has any interest in competitive play beyond occassionally attending a sneak. We've been with the game since Origins and have pumped a lot of money into UDE's coffers.

I'm not sure that's how rights work. The right to free speech doesn't equate to "I can say what I want without being berated for it" ... as berating is someone else excercising their rights. Now, if it gets to the point of HARASSMENT, that's another kettle of fish.

Just don't come crying to us when as a result of the spending habits of doing so is a bad thing.

It's a 'can't have your cake and eat it too' situation.

You can go for the cheaper stuff ... but if you later complain about the lack of 'perks' you'll end up looking like a hypocrite.

You don't have to worry about losing hobby league shops in your area.

However, for people that DO need hobby league shops in order to have a community of players to play against, NOT supporting those hobby league shops and complaining about the hobby shops not supporting them [i.e. giving them a place to play, not buying hobby league kits, etc] is hypocritical.

No I don't. Look at DocX and others telling me so.

Sorry, Walt, but another mod has told me my opinion is wrong because he knows what I know and what I don't.

Release Celebration? Can we get a new name on that one? Not for anything but it sounds like the politically correct way to describe something gay. Sorry.

More seriously what about doing something like magic does and having on-line tourneys that can add points to your rating and maybe even get you swag and with your winnings you can get cards?

I tried pressing that a few times, as a Store owner I had to deal with it. Stores that order more get more of a discount. You have to prove you have a store to order, and agree not to sell things on line. (Yes some places make you sign an agreement to that.) So I have to try and keep up with those prices, and the prices of on line places. I started running people out that were giving away on line stores addresses to order, or showing up with other stores bags and leaving them on my table. I lower prices to match or beat other people, then those that are not normal customers show up to get something cheap, buy be out, and my normal people have to wait one day (shipping for most places is over night) or go somewhere else.

The whole time I paid for ads, power, water, rent and then for anything else I might need like those stupid bog o heroclix (they charge stores for those, and are told they are there to be given away) and to hire people to be there more often.