Ok, we both are guilty of ignorant claims then. Because when 75% of the gaming stores don't carry Vs, then it is safe to say that there are not thousands of players like him. I tell you what. I will call every game store in the state of Alabama and ask them if they carry Vs or not. I do it every year but haven't got around to it in 2007. I bet I get the same response as I did last year.

"We special order it for a one or two people but we don't carry it normally because there isn't enough interest in it."

And no, I don't think that pros drive this game at all. But I do think that for the majority of players still playing, the fact that they might make good money playing it, drives them. Take that away and we are pretty much left with nothing.

You say that there are casual players. I say that there are not. I offered solutions to try and fix that. I hope I am wrong and you are right. I hope that the thing that kept people from playing is fear of the pros. I hope the game grows so much now and we can figure out how to have big money tournaments again.

40 Pages in under 24 hours. One thing that this thread shows is that people really do care about this game ...

The difference is though, I'm not saying "pros don't make a difference", and "there isn't a single pro who wants to play for fun". You're making statements claiming you know exactly what every casual player wants, when you're not even one yourself. I'm a casual player, and even I wouldn't be so bold as to try and speak for all casual players.

My personal stake in this game is as follows: I like comic books. I'm willing to bet that VS sells a ton to people that like comic books, even if it's just a couple packs per person. Then, once I got into the game more, I realized how fun is was, and now experiment with affiliations I'm not as familiar with. Hell, because of VS, I'm now a subscriber of the Checkmate comic series. 6 months ago, I didn't know who Checkmate was. As long as there are new cards, and people to play with, I'm happy.

Yes, I enjoy going to an occasional PCQ or Sneak. Yes, I'm even happier when I win a couple packs or a playmat. However, I enjoyed the game plenty before I even found out about those things. I love the art, the characters, the interactions, the game play, the complexity, the strategy, and the mechanics. The fact that there were $40,000 prizes at Pro Circuit events never even phased me. I live in Austin, TX. There's no way I could ever fly to LA just for a card tournament. I couldn't afford it. If I ever won a PCQ, that $250 would go to more cards for fun, and bills.

I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people like me; they're just not in places you would meet them. They're at home playing. They're not on the forums. The only reason I logged onto the forums intially was for a rules clarification that I could have figured out on my own if I had found the CRD sooner. I stayed because I met nice people, not because I wanted to study netdecks and plan my Vs. System career.

I don't want a shot at the big money. I know I can't compete with you guys. I just want to have fun with my hobby.

Looks like someone will need to find a new idol to barn.

Don't hate because you weren't invited to join the Jank-Sauce. Remember, we're in this because we love the game. We ARE the casual players. We love this game... not the (broken) promises of cash and glory.

So please, go pop your blood vessel already.

dschneider wins the thread.

Could it not be possible, just hypothetically speaking, that by cutting such a huge chunk out of the budget they can turn a profit even if they don't sell to MORE casual players?

Is the lost sales from pro players going to be MORE than the money saved from eliminating the prize money they did?

The casual base doesn't necessarily have to exponentially increase to keep the game going. Perhaps a realistic prize budget is all that's necessary. It might take a bit longer ... Sydney's 300K of prizes puts a big crimp on the 2007 budget. In 2008 they can spread what wealth they have more broadly.

I find it hard to believe that two different people on the internet are making ignorant claims, AT THE SAMETIME! Not in this thread, and certainly not on these boards!

Forget how I feel about Vs. my very faith in the interweb is now falling apart. How will I ever survive knowing that the vague generalities and statistics I see posted on message boards aren't actually researched and are in fact not accurate? I guess I am only 33.89 % sure I can go on.


I guess I will have to patiently wait and see how Jeff's announcements shake out in the real world over time. Hopefully this time next year we all will be here complaining about the next 'world shaking' Vs anouncement and making ignorant claims.

WalterKovacs, you stole my signature idea...

Just pretend you are Changeling. Alternate recruit FTW.

After about a dozen PMs either crucifying me or praising me on this one statement, I fell the need to clarify. I should edit "dumb" to lazy. I owned a game store up until the end of last year. I have personally taught at least 300 people how to play this game. I have given them cards, helped them with decks, anything to keep them hooked. Only a dozen or so of those players still play. The #1 reason that stopped playing is because they didn't want to make the effort to even play casually. The game required too much thought.

My wife just made a very good point while she was reading over my shoulder and laughing at me telling me I am not helping. She says people just don't have the time to devote to the game to be good at it. I say people don't even have the time to not be bad. The game requires way too much effort. There isn't the instant gratification of beating someone like in Magic when a player misses a land drop and you crush them. There isn't the "hot damn, I won the die role and and chose odds so I will probably win" like in WoW.

Magic and Wow are so simple to play. Both are not bogged down with lots of game text, 1000 different mechanics and as many teams. If I sit down against a Shaman player, I know what to expect. If I am playing against a red mage, I can plan my attacks based on what my opponent can utilize with that color. In Vs, I pretty much have to worry about almost every card. There are so few team stamped playable cards.

For all you casual players out there that are still with us, I commend you. I wish their were thousands of more people like you. I wish that people simply played because it is fun to be Spidey or Superman and yes even Ahmed. But the reality of it is, the game just isn't easy enough or fun enough for anyone other than the super casual fanboy or the competetive player.

I would love to hear anyone's rational opinion on how to make the game more accessible to the average Magic and WoW player that just wants to play for fun and not have to think.

And Rian, your post does not deliver. I usually give you your own reply, but if you can't be bothered to really impress with your stupidity, I can not be bothered to make you feel special and give you your fifteen.

Hi Hope! You have really been doing a great job with our man, he has stayed off these forums like a good boy. I'm sure you are reaping the rewards... and you know how jealous that makes me.

Dave, you gave me a shout-out and that's all I needed. I'll sleep like a baby tonight. Check Monday on Metagame, I might have picked you to win Sydney.

I love you both. This has been a great ride, even if it may be slowing down. I hope I get to rub your bald head at Indy. (Not Hope's... she doesn't need to do the Britney thing for me.)

Excellent post. All I am saying is that you are the exception and that there are not many like you. I wish this were not true. I wish that we had so many people that play, that we were not be in this mess. And, futhermore, I am a casual player. I just happen to lucky enough to have a few more resources than most casual players have. I have more fun playing against my wife and her "all girl" deck with my Manhunter/Arkham mill deck than anything that I have played at the pro circuit.

Sales would indicate that their are not many people like us out there. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the game sales enough product that killing the pro circuit will ensure that it is healthy for a long time. If that is the case, I will still be playing the game. I am buying the video game. I will still be here. I just don't agree that this is going to save the game. Sure, it may postpone the game's death, but it certainly will not fix the problem. Until we can make it easier for people to play, we are always going to be #4-5.

I don't even know where to start here. I beg your indulgence if I come of as offensive or inflammatory.

That said, wow, strong arrogance. Did you get a rib removed so you could give your self oral pleasure?

Your whole statement reeks of self-righteousness. The fact of a matter is this: If an individual is spending their hard earned money to pay UDE to entertain them but aren't being entertained... what's wrong with them spending their money on something else to be entertained?

It's not like UDE is saying "Wait three months everything will be hunky dory" - there's a chance we may never see the OP we previously saw. If your girlfriend got fat and ugly and you consequently broke up with her because her lovin' went sour is that wrong? Are you being superficial?

No.

Life is too short for us to stick with something that doesn't work with us. You enjoy the game. Fine. I love the game. Good. Other people don't enjoy the game now. Cool. The whole idea of you being superior because you are "loyal" is ridiculous. Every person is different and to go against what they want simply because of an imaginary loyalty that's groundless is stupid.

By the way, I resent the implication that you're better then someone like dawnyoshi who actually provides intelligent information to this community and others. To say that he's "hatin'" cause he's not in Jank Sauce is ridiculous. When I see a dawnyoshi post, I pay attention because he's proven himself to be credible poster with good insight. When I see a team Jank Sauce poster post - with the exception of a few who are incredible - I hit the back button.

In case you say I'm "hatin" too, I got an invitation to Jank Sauce also. What does that say when scum like me gets one but someone like Mike doesn't?

There's a few of us ... maybe if everyone has it as their sigs, we'll get the 50K's back ...

How does this happen? Mike explodes defending Dave and then we fall out into a full-on flame war?

Please, let's not. Not in this thread. Thanks.