While he can knockout thug level characters, Juggernaut or Thing will take at most 2 damage (when fresh), and have a decent chance of taking zero damage. Conversely, Exploit Weakness would give DD guaranteed 2 damage against Impervious/Invulnerability characters (provided the attack roll succeeds and a feat like Protected isn't in effect on the target).

He won't be able to pounce for 4. Max pounce damage (barring Items with Super Strenght) Is 3 damage

That reasoning has never sat well with me.

Sure Batman is well trained and does have many "wonderful toys" but both those points lend themselves more towards EW or Outwit. CCE is saying he could slug it out with Superman without the aid of Kryptonite using his bare hands. That is super uncharacteristic.

He also routinely uses explosives.

Simple fact is, put Batman and Daredevil in a dark room, and Batman's nightvision goggles are on the blink, and DD wins. Any other circumstance, he can only win by running, and even then he couldn't get far.

I think a fight between Batman and Daredevil would be pretty close actually, although Batman does have and use more in the way of high tech weaponry. As for Batman's CCE that was before exploit weakness was available, although it still doesn't explain the 4 damage. He may use explosives at times but that really doesn't define CCE.

Only one target? Looks like Daredevil fans get screwed for a comic accurate representation once again. Oh well, he's not a character that I personally care about alot.

I think you are looking at Close Combat Expert way too narrowly....If Batman had on a ring with Kryptonite then CCE or EW would be much more accurate than Outwit because it would only work while Batman was attacking not just in general....

Many of the ways Daredevil would attack an opponent wouldn't allow other people to attack him through damage reducers so Outwit isn't as accurate as EW or CCE in those cases....CCE is more accurate than EW because as has been said before he isn't powerful enough to ignore an opponent's Impervious and this way he doesn't...



There is one answer to the Daredevil vs Batman fight....fans....That is all it is....Whoever is a fan of one over the other will believe his fan favorite will win...but between those two there isn't a definitive winner so no one should really try to say there is...

This isn't really the thread to start a Marvel vs. DC Grayson fight ... but ... Matt is considered the greatest martial artist (besides perhaps Elektra) to come out of the Hand or any of it's offshoots (Stick was a member of a clan that is a Hand offshoot). And for all intents and purposes the Hand is Marvel's LOA. So I think Elektra kind of equates to Shiva, and Daredevil in a pure fist fight can hold his own against Batman. Could Batman take out Daredevil ? Of course, while he slept or was on the can Bruce would have him cornered and have a sonic emitter ready to completely hose him.

That being said ... Heroclix has been #### for the past few months but the Kingpin LE will single handedly prompt me to begin playing again.

It's more a problem of Superman being hard to emulate in Heroclix. Knuckles on a 12 can do a click of damage to Superman. In a comic book setting I would think most writers would portray Knuckles hitting Superman all day and night and doing nothing but hurting his own fists and knees. The spectrum of values is too narrow in Heroclix ... especially damage. Think about it, the current spectrum (barring the Galactus/Spectres/Phoenix) is from 0 (Destiny, etc.) - 6 (Ultimate Hulk) ... so you have a 7 unit scale to define the difference between Destiny and Superman and everything in between. Contrast this with something like the DC Role Playing Game ... Superman's Strength value in that game is a 25, with the average human having a 1, and a peak human like Batman having a 5.

In those rules the impact of those values are almost exponential:

A 1 equates to 160lbs.
A 5 equates to around 1,000lbs
Supermans 25 equates to 3,276,800 tons

In the DC RPG Knuckles might get a strength of 3. Versus Superman's body (defense) of 18 he has 0% chance of doing any damage.

Anyway, I think the tight scaling of the Heroclix values is why much of this comes up. The designers have such a narrow range of values, and only a few ways to cheat up or down.

Well, Charcoal's figure doesn't have a flight stand, so it's not just the database that screwed up that one.

I thinkit does. He tends to use them in close, tightly confined shaped charges that he can "tag" onto a target (so as to avoid collateral damage). I just thinkit's safe to assume that if Batman wants to do 4 damage to someone, he has the means to do so.

Not really. I could agree with the Shiva/Electra thing, although I think Shiva is depicted as having the edge in a melee fight, while Electra is a more well rounded assassin, but I don't think Daredevil is on that same level. Most of the Hand are rather scrubbish, Electra was practically a fluke (although most of the LoA is pretty scrubbish too). I would put Daredevil's physical skills on the same tier as Nightwing's, a very strong combatant, a very strong acrobat, but not on the top tier of fighters. His senses give him a significant edge in combat, but in a straight brawl, not nearly enough to turn the tide against a Batman class opponent.

I just don't see how CCE can be justified on either Bats or DD since neither should be physically capable of hurting an impervious character without using O/EW. That's why it's called impervious, because you don't get hurt so easily. They can't compete physically with a superhuman so they have to use their brains in order to come out on top. If either of these guys got into a situation where they couldn't O/EW a superstrong opponent then they would run away or get clobbered. That's the hard truth. Giving them extra damage to offset this fact is just a way to please the fanboys since in everyone's mind their favorite character is a 'superman'.

One thing that they have gotten right though is representing if these guys did stand and fight against such poor odds. A high defense with CR/SS perfectly represents superior agility without compromising damage capabilities. In this type of fight Bats & DD become great tie-up pieces.

I'd think using explosives would be best represented by EE or even RCE since Batman isn't likely to be setting off a bomb in close combat. Truth be told, giving either Bats or DD CCE isn't my major concern so much as their damage as a result goes above 3. To justify that kind of damage they had better be using weapons made out of adamantium or something equivalent.

And a what point did this become a Bats vs. DD scenario? The situation you described though is a perfect example of outwit.

Look, here's the thing.


CCE doesn't always = punching and kicking. Sometimes it means throwing, grappling, pressure points, atemi, etc.

Daredevl is, for all intents and purposes, a boxer with an acrobatic streak. Batman is a damn Ninja in every sense of the word. Daredevil fights clean. Batman fights DIRTY. Comparing Batman to Dareevil is actually wrong. Daredevil is like Nightwing... Batman is like Punisher without guns.

In a strait fight, Batman wins 9 times out of 10. If it's Nightwing vs. Daredevil...














We All Win.

EE would be a horrible representation, since it doesn't effect Impervious targets (which is what Batman uses them on), and RCE wouldn't work because he does indeed use them in close combat, because they are shaped charges, which blow up what they are attached to with minimal collateral damage. He uses these weapons to harm opponents that he can't simply beat into unconsciousness, such as when he tooled Amazo, or damaged The General enough to slow him down, in both cases using bat grenades while adjacent to them. Also, in the latest issue he used contact charges on Croc, who has Toughness.

It's not Outwitting their defenses in those cases, it's overcoming them through brute force.