It was.

However, whenever a dishonest person tells a story in the comics differently than I read it, I chalk it up the that character being full of carp.

Here's another example.

Recently in Excaliber, Cytorak told the Juggernaut that he was a loser and that he never was intended to be the Juggernaut. Charles Xavier (his archnemises) was supposed to be the Juggernaut.

Now this, like the retcon in Under the Hood2 was a) didn't make the story better and b) didn't make sense (because Charles Xavier is practically a passifist and would have made a terrible Juggernaut).

My explanation? Cytorak was just bsing the Juggernaut to piss him off because if Cytorak was telling the truth, the story is less entertaining AND makes less sense.

Similarly, if the Red Hood was telling the truth, the story was less entertaining AND made less sense. Therefore, I will assume he was just lieing.

Since crawling out of the grave gives you Toughness, then returning from the dead should give you Impervious!

JL Superman CHECKED
M&M Apocalypse CHECKED


OMG it actually works!

Hey all, yeah, I know the character is not everyone's favorite, but he has gotten a little support on this thread alone, so it's not just me who's a fan (although I'm a huge Jason Todd fan). A couple more things:

A lot of things I was referring to as far as Jason fighting Bruce was more from the Under the Hood storyline, rather than Hush. Due to the Clayface/Hush/retcon switch, the Hush storyline obviously doesn't showcase the resurrected Jason at all, whereas Under the Hood definitely showcases Jason's new skills and attitude (as does the One Year Later Nightwing impersonation). It was during these issues immediately leading up to Batman Annual # 25 and Infinite Crisis that Jason was giving Batman fits. Not necessarily beating him up, but eluding him, and hurting him, and overall, just confusing the heck out of him. It was also during this time that Jason wailed on the Joker with the crowbar, and tried to force Bruce to kill a captive Joker.

Back to the original DC Jason Todd call-in, I think some facts have been lost in the shuffle. Only 10,000 fans called in. And the numbers were split almost evenly in the kill/not kill camps. So basically, only 5000 people (at most), called in to kill off Jason Todd (there were probably multiple calls from some fans on both sides). To be truthful, it was a horrible gimmick to begin with, and imagine if they did the same thing to Tim Drake at this current moment, there would be some seriously offended fans. I was offended about the phone poll back then, but I was a stupid 17-year old, who tried to spend more time on my homework rather than changing DC's editorial policy at the time.

Regardless of anyone's feelings, Jason Todd is not only resurrected, has not only fought Bruce, Tim, and Dick to a standstill, but now searches the multiverse for Ray Palmer along with the other Challengers. You may not like Jason Todd, but it is very hard to deny the impact he has had over the last 3 years especially, and I'm sure before it's all said and done, his impact will be even greater.

This in no way diminishes the impact that Bats and all the other Robins have had (including Stephanie/Spoiler) on the DC Universe and the hearts and minds of the readers, but Jason's story has impacted my heart and mind as much as any of those other characters has. So nana-nana-boo-boo!!! Sorry, just got caught up in the moment...

EDIT: And I think crawling out of your own casket should give you Willpower and Toughness at the VERY least!!!

Because he wasn't in it.

Again, you don't get credit for being equivalent to someone (read, fought to a standtill) if you've spent most of your time in comics trying to do that and just that.

For instance:
1) Deathstroke has fought the Titans to a standstill numerous times, BUT THAT WAS AFTER DOING HIS RESEARCH. That doesn't mean he needs to cost as much as a 6 person titans team.
2) Magneto has taken on pretty much then entire X-men numerous times, but that doesn't mean he should cost as much as 10 Vet X-men.

In other words, You get credit for how good you are on average, not against a specific foe after careful planning.

Jason Todd is a 50-60 pt character. He's not as versatile as Tim.

He might end up that between 50-60 points, but I would like him to be greater than 60 and less than 86 point range. It would be nice to see a Nightwing and Robin in that range too. Looking at the characters in that range already, he would fit in.

And what kind of versatility does Tim have over Jason? I really dig Tim, he is the Robin I grew up reading. If you mean his skills are more varied, then I would agree. But if it is to describe their ability to adapt to a situation, I would say they are even.

On a different note...

Jason isn't Karnak, but he should be able to deal out more damage than Tim. It would be nice to see him with Perplex, Will Power, Exploit Weakness, Stealth, Leap/Climb, Energy Explosion, and "not have" Batman Enemy TA. I don't quite seem him having unique special powers, but something similar to Gambit would work.

~Phil

I think the Red Hood needs to be 45ish points. He shouldn't be anywhere near 86 points.

Lets just look at Justice League.

Creeper for 45 points should be able to beat him.
Firehawk for 63
Bulleteer for 69
Black Canary for 50
Dr. Light for 67
Merlyn for 55
Dr. Alchemy for 62
Plastic Man for 55
Bronze Tiger for 60
Major Disaster for 69

I don't see a character between 50 and 80 points in the entire set that should lose to the Red Hood except for Heatwave on a bad day. 45 points.

so some people say he should be 40 to 60 and some people say he should be 60 to 80 hmm .

It was a "Jump to Conclusions" mat. You see, it would be this mat that you would put on the floor... and would have different CONCLUSIONS written on it that you could JUMP TO.

lol huh u lost me on that one jack of hearts .

If we're talking about current Jason Todd, I can easily see 80 points.

Even a Rookie Red Hood should be about 50, or even 65, to match the cost of the Vet Robin from Icons. I'm not saying Jason should be anywhere near the point level of Bats, but I've said all along that there should be a monster Batman, which is more indicative of Bruce's intelligence, tech, contacts, and persona, and be AT LEAST 150 points, if not 200.

I don't think Jason would be absolutely beat by that list you posted above, Jackofhearts. Seriously, Merlyn? Maybe it's just me, but Batman's one-time protege deserves better than that. Bullets and arrows would fly, but I think the Red Hood beats Merlyn, the Creeper, and possibly Bronze Tiger and Plastic Man. The others on the list, a lot of characters would have trouble with due to certain power sets.

If Red Hood has access to tech, and preparation, he'd even beat Black Canary, she's obviously a much better close combat fighter and her sonic scream is nuts, but with the right earplugs and the right guns, she's toast.

I know it's all conjecture, because until it's on the printed comic book page, there is no way to see how these individual battles would go. I'm just saying, for a non-superhuman character, Jason Todd at his current status deserves more than 50 points (as does Black Canary).

In conclusion, I think a nice 75 points, to match the cheesy Batman from JL would be great. Power sets should be similar, but maybe lose the nasty Out of the Shadows, and add some things like Willpower and Blades!

But per the retcon in Batman Annual # 25, he was in it. I know, I know, it's a retcon, but it's canon, you can't doubt that. Also, the Annual implied that Jason gave Hush the idea of impersonating a dead Jason in the first place!!!

I was just saying in general though, that the Hush storyline, even with the retcon, shows nothing about Jason's skill set. The Under the Hood storyline, does indeed showcase his skill set. If anybody out there hasn't read it, then yeah, they might think Jason/RH deserves a 45 point character, but if they've read it, no way.

It doesn't mean you have to like the character. I'm not a huge fan of Hyperion and the Marvel version of the JLA (Squadron Supreme), but I would never deny that Hyperion wouldn't kick the #### out of most everyone on the planet.

You can interpret things differently, and that is true of all literature, but when you see Jason fight Bruce, Tim, and Dick to a standstill on different occasions, or see Superman-Prime destroy a planet with his bare hands, you can't deny their skill set. You can hate the character, but to NEGATE the character is indeed inappropriate.

The next line in the movie is "That's a terrible idea."

I was saying that you are jumping to a conclusion, similar to your conclusion that the Blue Beetle we saw was Superboy Prime.
Merlyn is Green Arrow's nemesis and he's just as good as Ollie is. The Red Hood may do well against Green Arrow's sidekick, but he wouldn't beat Merlyn.

The Creeper is superhuman. He's faster, stronger, meaner and crazier than Jason.

Bronze Tiger is so much better at Jason in martial arts that it isn't even a contest.

Plastic Man isn't not that good in offense, but there isn't a thing that the Red Hood could do to hurt him, let alone beat him.

Brevard, I can understand you saying "the Red Hood is better than Tim Drake, thus he should cost about 15 points more."

However, considering that list, I disagree strongly.

Brevard I understand the logic that because X can stand up to Y X should be equivalent to Y, but that's not how it actually works.

for X to be equivalent to Y, X has to be able to stand up to all foes that Y can stand up to, or an equivalent set.

Jason Todd has proved he can stand up to a few heroes and villains he spent years studying and copying, but he hasn't shown that he can take that training and resiliency and use it against as large a variety of foes as Batman, Drake, or Nightwing.

Batman had plans for taking out the entire JLA, and based on Luthor's efficacy theres very little doubt that Batman couldn't have pulled it off, but no one, not even the most fanboy of fanboy, wants to see a 1000 pt (estimated cost of entire JLA) Batman.

I think this seems like a good starting point.

#034 E The Red Hood
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 8
Points: 51

8 9 16 2

8 9 16 2

7 8 15 2

7 8 15 2

7 7 15 1

6 9 14 1

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

Defense - Training of The Bat: This character can use willpower and Combat reflexes

"Jason Todd" did all that.

Jason Todd is dead.

Ben Reilly was "Spider-Man". Peter Parker is Spider-Man.