Yes he is a sucky character. But I kind of view Goliath as Hank's experienced version, so I would expect some upgrades in stats, a slightly longer, dial, and a little more color on his dial. Of course, I have not read alot of issues with him as Goliath, so I don't know how deserving he would be of the things that I 've mentioned here.

I managed to play two games over Christmas. One of my teams was trying to include as many spy models I hadn't used as possible in 400 points, but the other was a little more accurate. The team was:-

HoT Enchantress
AV Baron Zemo
w. Thunderbolts (MoE)
Sunder
AW R Executioner

All three are Masters of Evil staples so it could represent any era really. They took on the Warriors Three and started out well, using the Asgard map to jump from one side of the area to the other and mugging Fandrel. Unfortunately Hogun pinned down and massacred the Executioner and once he was gone Zemo followed, and Enchantress couldn't take on the remaining Warriors Two. Fun though.

"I don't always play themes. But when I do, I play those X-Men."

Sorry, popped in my head and refused to stay there...

-J

I definitely approve of the general thrust of this thread, and have been repeatedly baffled by some of the keywords that haven't been handed out almost as if they were viewed as part of the dial cost, which they cannot have been.

When assembling an original Avengers team I'm often thrown by how the brick mail-away Anthony Stark
aw218 LE Anthony Stark
Team: Avengers
Range: 8
Points: 100
Keywords: Armor, Scientist

8 9 16 3

8 9 15 3

7 9 16 3

7 8 16 3

7 8 16 2

7 7 15 2

6 9 15 1

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

...is so obviously much more an Iron Man after having returned to the states and gotten to use better tech, and even has the Avengers TA on the base (though as I recall, the old Wizkids gallery didn't attribute it to him) yet he doesn't have the Avengers keyword.

I just cannot get myself to use the official early Avengers Iron Man

aw088 U Iron Man
Team: Avengers
Range: 6
Points: 89
Archenemy: Crimson Dynamo (Red)
Keywords: Armor, Avengers, Scientist

8 9 16 3

8 9 16 3

7 8 16 2

7 8 16 2

7 8 16 2

7 8 15 2

6 7 15 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

,,,with its lower range, average AV, etc.

Also, yes, Hank Pym's Giant Man piece unfortunately doesn't bring his inventiveness to bear -- certainly not enough to be a proper stand-in for him once he returned to the team that first time as Goliath. (A little editorializing: He's a "sucky" character only to the extent that "sucky" writers opted to take him in that direction and ultimately reduce him to almost nothing more than an extremely unfortunate chapter in his life.)

Oh, speaking of a different Goliath, how do you all react to taking Luke Cage

av016 V Luke Cage
Team: Avengers
Range: 0
Points: 85
Keywords: Avengers, Fantastic Four, Heroes for Hire, Marvel Knights

8 9 16 3

8 9 16 3

6 8 16 3

7 8 17 3

7 8 16 3

6 9 15 2

6 8 15 2

6 7 14 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

... and adding Pym Particles to him,
haF005 Pym Particles
Points: 6
Prerequisites: {starburst}, Avengers TA

...especially now that it's been ruled to be a single activation item (not something allowing the character to effectively grow and shrink at various points during the game) and use him as the Clint Barton Goliath, from Avengers #63 until just after the Kree-Skrull War. There he'd used Pym's discovery to become part of the team's muscle, an area where the team of that era was generally lacking when older, revolving door Avengers such as Thor and Iron Man weren't on hand, as they generally weren't at the time.

While for game-play purposes, of course, I'd like better stats, but the dial works very well for me for this character, and we have the added bonuses of both the Avengers TA on the base and the keyword on the card to allow for offiicially-themed team creation.

The opening Invulnerability strikes me as fitting, given the hits and blasts Goliath had to take during his time in that role -- Toughness just wouldn't cut it. The sustained Super Strength fits, and the steady stats allow him to take a hit or two and remain largely the same in terms of ability.

Making this substitution, a period team mostly falls into place quickly:

85 pts AV016 Luke Cage (As Goliath)
6 pts HAF005 Pym Particles
108 SV062 Vision
92 AV024 Black Panther
62 AW053 Quicksilver
... leaving the continuing problem of the Scarlet Witch, as I'm always reluctant to use the Avengers SR because the flight ability doesn't fit. The IC veteran

40 pts IC105 Scarlet Witch

probably isn't a terrible fit, as it's important to remember that during this time her powers were largely at their weakest. If I did go for the 35 pt Avengers SR I'd try to disregard her ability to fly, or at least certainly wouldn't allow her to carry anyone.

You can always play Avengers Scarlet Witch and refuse to use her flight ability. A self imposed restriction if you will, not unlike your self imposed restriction of refusing to use her because she flys. But at least you save 5 points over the veteran.

I like the Pym Particles on Luke Cage for Goliath too (may be a little more accurate than the Exp FF Yellow Jacket.

Right. It's (Avengers SR Scarlet Witch) probably the way I'd continue to go, just not using her flight.

I hadn't strongly considered the FF Yellowjackets because the Running Shot didn't feel right, though otherwise the dial depth, higher initial AV (on the E & V) and more clicks of Invulnerability are a little tempting. Luke's dial still strikes me as closer to what should be, though, and a better functional value unless one looks forward to multiple turns where he's reduced to being mobile blocking terrain with little to no chance of making a successful attack.

Having a game tonight pitting the Old School Avengers team mentioned earlier -

Avengers:

R Thor (SN) 112 pts
R Giant-Man (AV) 82 pts
R Wasp (AV) 37 pts
R Iron Man (AW) 89 pts
R Captain America (HoT) 72 pts

392 pts

against this Old School MOE team - which includes several "customs" -

HOT Enchantress 141 pts
Vet Executioner (AW) 89 pts
Custom Melter 56 pts (on a Heatwave base from JL)
Custom Black Knight 54 pts (on a FF Rookie Black Knight base)
Custom Zemo 53 pts (on a MM Vet Silver Sable Base)

393 pts

The new Enchantress is a huge upgrade over the old one!
The Vet Executioner is the only one who comes close to the power level of the old school Executioner IMHO - this guy went toe to toe with Thor, Hulk, you name it!
The Melter is way overdue to be made into clix form - this custom is the original, "der Fledermaus" looking costume - Being a Wildcard helps, especially with Enchantress on the field!
Black Knight was a no-brainer - I can also add on either Thunderbolts for 5 more points or Alpha Flight for free to give him a bump to his attack!
The Zemo in my opinion is a great representation! The Silver Sable dial gives him Wildcard (hello Mystics feedback damage!!!) The dial starts with Stealth, BCF, Mastermind and Leadership! Spells original Baron Zemo to me! Also starts with an 11 Attack, and with Enchantress available to Perplex, he has a chance to even hit Cap at range!

I hope to get some pix and post them!
This should be fun!

Rep in general and specifically for the daring choice of Silver Sable as a Zemo surrogate, Tom. I could see that.

What would you think of the Veteran Talia from Legacy as another possibility?

lg012 V Talia
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 6
Points: 56
Keywords: League of Assassins, Society

8 10 17 2

8 9 16 2

7 9 15 2

7 8 14 2

6 8 13 2

6 7 12 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

I always like to have some analogue to the blaster weapon and some Adhesive X gimmick when looking at the original Zemo, and by the time Cap was coming up against him (however briefly) in the Silver Age Zemo had been training extensively on his hand-to-hand skills, IIRC, so the Incapacitate and the Exploit Weakness both work reasonably well for me. It also still fits within the build you've presented. Also, especially as there aren't real lackeys around to make the Mastermind on SS's dial work well, Talia's Willpower strikes me as a strong part of what made Zemo Zemo. It does lack the Wilcard TA, though, but I can live with that.

Miraclo, did Clint lose his marksman abilities when he was Goliath? Cause otherwise the Running shot wouldn't be too out of place (at least its feasible).

Of course he didn't lose the skill set*, but it wasn't the way he operated while a giant. He generally shifted to being a charging, super strong, giant brick. Moreover, he no longer carried his own ammunition the way he had (and would again) as Hawkeye. The Super Strength giant's ability to throw heavy objects 6 spaces and light ones 8 should cover it most of the time.

Still, yes, I could see the RS & range reflecting some holdover of his ranged attacker thinking, and it does provide some versatility beyond the point where his Super Strength quits. Yeah, it's worth considering.

I'd already gotten you for something else recently.

* I can even recall at least once when he fashioned a makeshift bow and arrow from debris while giant-sized, for a single shot in a special circumstance.

A favorite of my friend and I to run was the Invaders vs the Nazi Horde.

The last time we ran it was a while back, so no SI Namor or Torch

The Invaders consisted of:

Cap and Bucky Duo
Union Jack
Spitfire
Thin Man
FF Namor
Toro
FF Human Torch (remember, pre SI)

vs

Red Skull
Baron Blood
Baron Strucker
Baron Zemo (wrong Zemo, I know, but...)
and a bunch of Hydra scrubs to act as Nazi foot soldiers

You could even sub in a rookie Super-woman for Warrior Woman, and another similar flying SS brick for Master Man (non Impervious). Team them with the non cube wielding Red Skull and some hydra mooks as soldier stand ins and run them against: HoT Cap, SI Namor, SI Human Torch, Av Bucky, Av Toro

Wow, great idea!
and I have several extras I'm sure!
Thanks!

I actually ran the following team in a fun game this weekend .. i plan on using it more. They are not world beaters , but they are fun to play


RENEGADES

si016 U Hercules
Team: Avengers
Range: 0
Points: 142
Keywords: Avengers, Champions, Deity, Warrior

8 10 18 3

8 10 17 3

8 11 16 3

6 11 17 3

6 10 17 3

7 9 16 3

7 9 16 2

7 8 15 2

6 8 15 2

5 8 14 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

(Speed) Wrestler: Hercules can use Charge, Flurry, and Plasticity.

(Attack) Godlike Strength: Hercules can use Super Strength. He can carry two objects at the same time if they are both standard objects; he can use only one object per attack.

With imortal Contempt


ha024 V Namora
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0
Points: 76
Keywords: Agents of Atlas, Atlantis, Ruler

8 10 17 3

8 10 16 3

9 10 16 3

9 10 16 3

8 9 15 2

8 9 15 2

8 8 15 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

(Special) Special: Namora has the [aquatic] symbol

(Speed) Team Player: When using the Carry ability, Namora can carry two friendly characters if they both share a keyword with her.


dr003 V Angel
Team: X-Men
Range: 0
Points: 50
Keywords: Defenders, Mutant, X-Factor

12 9 16 2

10 8 16 2

9 8 17 1

9 8 17 1

8 7 16 1

8 7 15 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

with Force Field

and

Amadius Cho .. They appeared together in World War Hulk .. when incredible hulk became incredible Herculese ...

Now all we need is a Femals Scorpion to add in.

A friend and I are planning a 700 pt (well, OK, 702 pt) game of the Morrison-era JLA (specifically the Rock of Ages line-up) against Luthor's first Injustice Gang. This is the team I have planned at the moment.

JL Lex Luthor (I have a mod of him in a suit which works for him in that arc. http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/album....pictureid=2265)
CR Circe
BA Clown Prince Of Crime
R CD Dr Light
V OR Mirror Master with The Society ATA

And to sub for the missing two, the part of Ocean Master will be played by AA Black Manta (with the Society ATA) and the part of Jemm will be played by JL Hector Hammond with Brilliant Tactician. Black Manta seems the obvious substitution for Ocean Master, and I think Hector Hammond fills in as a mostly immobile psychic (which Jemm was in that arc) but does anyone else have any ideas that might work better?

Man, talk about cuckoo:

5x Cuckoos (the original set were 5 sisters)
Emma Frost w/ Protected
V Cyclops (IC) w/ Coordination

400 on the dot.

I totally annihilated a New Guardians of the Galaxy team. Needlessly to say, multiple PC's just ensured one of the 5 possible rerolls for the opponent could possibly be a miss. Coupled with Emma's Perplex and Cyke's Coordination at 10 range, I was able to simply fire from behind the Cuckoos and cripple his force one by one before going full-bore for Phylla-Vell.