The Cap in the MU is what happened to Cap after the events of 9-11, they didn't Ultimize him at all. He just started questioning things. Thor received the Odin-Force because his daddy died. That's why he's king of Asgard now, Ultimate Thor doesn't have the Odin Force or anything anyway, it's just changes in a charecter.

And I believe the Heroes Reborn storyline was planned from the start.

my, but we are a bunch of sensitive readers, eh? I've found that the best way not to get bogged down with how bad mainstream comics can get (just like the mainstream of any entertainment medium is worse than the independent), I read less marvel & Dc than I do "the indies" (Image, Oni, Dork Storm, Vertigo technically, Slave Labor Graphics, IDW). Seriously, there are TONS of independent publishers out there putting out GREAT stuff, and even if they have to cancel a series because it's not making money, they NEVER leave the readers in limbo: they even let totally unprofitable stories wrap up, at the risk of their own money, rather than leave the fans forever craving the final chapter.

I am still very cross at Marvel about this one:
In 1998 Marvel launched a new "Mature readers" line of "Strange Tales" books; Man-Thing & Werewolf By Night (there was supposed to be a new Sattana series as well, but it never saw print). As of the 3rd issue of both titles they were back on the Comics code. Nonetheless, I still feel that Man-Thing V.3 #'s 1-8 (all that came out before cancellation) ans Werewolv V.2 1-6 (likewise) are among the absolute best things Marvel ever published. They cancelled both series and set out to let the creators finish the stories in a new "Strange Tales" compilation series that combined both titles into a giant-size monthly $4.99 comic that was slated to run 4 issues. For starters this enraged me as it would effect sales for those who only bought one of the two titles and didn't want to shell out the extra $2 to get this other book they didn't want. Then came the worst part... Strange Tales #'s 3 & 4 WERE NEVER PUBLISHED. These were 2 deeply thought out and very intense stories... and they will never have their conclusions told. Some of the best works every published by Marvel (J.M Dematteis on Man-Thing & Paul Jenkins on Werewolf, plus Leonardo Manco's breath-taking art on Werewolf... it always makes me angry).

Anyway.... getting a bit off topic there... Indies are totally safe reading if you fear for the stability of your favorite titles. There's less superhero stuff to be had there, but there are much better things to be read anyhow. Heck, even Marvel's really not publishing many things that can still be called "superhero". Daredevil's more of a hard-edged courtroom drama, Hulk's an action movie where the Hulk itself is never let loose, X-Statix & Spider Man are soap operas... all good stuff, mind you; just not "superhero books". :-)

The most involving indie things I've found on the current market:
PARADIGM; monthly from Image
AMELIA RULES!; Quarterly from Renaissance Press
GIRL GENIUS; Quarterly from Studio Foglio / Airship Comics
POPBOT; Quarterly from IDW Publishing
30 DAYS OF NIGHT; Out in trade from IDW Publishing with a sequel series on the way
100 BULLETS; Monthly from Dc Vertigo
POWERS; Monthly from Image
NIGHTMARES & FAIRYTALES; Bi-monthly from Slave Labor Graphics
BERLIN; erratically published from Drawn & Quarterly

First, the Cap relaunch changed his entire background to make him ready for the ultiamtes. I know this as a fact. Weather they went through with it or not, he wass changed so that now he is no longer the same character personality wise, or morally. So he too has been ultimate-ized weather they chose to claim that or not. The same goes for several other characters in the non-classic, classic MU.

It still boils down to the same thing. If you want ultimates than I am glad they have them for you and I state again I hope they make clix for you all that want them. But I won't be spending my money on them, weather they are in a single expansion set or a few at a time. And the way that many of the main stream characters act is less like the characters they are supposed to be and more like the ultimates. Weather you agree with me or not, I will not be giving Marvel any more of my Money to Marvel, except in the case of Heroclix figures that are based on the classic MU characters or a Marvel Masterwork Hardcover. Beyond that, Marvel is dead. Long live DC!!!

Oh, and by the way, There is a mini-series being printed by Marvel now called The End. This was originally planned to be the end of the classic MU. Even my dealer showed me old dealer ads that promoted that just today. So again, long live DC!!!!

Hmmm okay. I'll take your word for it that someplace along the time they talked about changing the Captain America title into an Ultimate title. Sure it goes against the way they have run the Ultimate line so far (Avengers, X-men and Spidey still exist despite having Ultimate counterparts) and sure it seems to me that they made it extremely clear that the new book would be part of Marvel Knights, but apparently there was one article that was contrary to all those others I missed.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here and your adamance about him being "ultimatized" has more to do with a style of comics than an imprint. If you mean that his being ultimatized means making him edgier and more tied to the real world then yeah, they "ultimatized" him, previously know as Vertigoizing or being given the Marvel Knights treatment.

Well, I read two articles and a number of blurbs in CSN!, as well as an interview with Machio about the plans in a magazine. Sorry I don't recall which one. Maybe I don't remember it right, it could have been Marvel knights. But I know there was plans for an ultimate cap. With the pouched military belt and laced combat style boots and a more leathery looking costume.

Anyway, He doesn't even seem like the same character. Nor does he seem edgier or more tied to the real world. I felt the Cap in the Avengers line was much better at both than the guy that is supposed to be in the current "Captain America" title.

look at last issue. Some big business man (who has mob boss written all over him) daughter runs away with a guy who is clearly a mob boss to vegas. He has Steve brought in and says he wants his "kidnapped" daughter back. I must point out that the daughter was an adult and ran away with this guy for love. So Steve agrees to go to vegas and get her back. He says later he hates to see a young woman taken against her will. There was no evidence of this. Nor is it a crime to take your adult girlfriend to vegas if she consents to go, even if her father doesn't approve. So why was Steve going after this "kidnapped" girl. No reason except some guy asked him to. He had no clues or evidence to suggest any wrong doing. So what was the motivation for him going?? That is poor story telling and it makes Steve look like and idiot. It screams I am gullable... Kill me!

Also a friend gives him a piece of birthday cake and he goes to a bar to eat it in piece. The way the bar was presented was as a lively, loud, flashy, noisy, smokey, dimmly lit, kinda place. Surely not the kind of place to find peace and quiet. Again why was he there?? To appease some artists idea of a good time?? It didn't fit the thought they were presenting. Plus it just read like the idea was stupid.

The art wasn't very good either. I personally do not care for that gritty, dull, art.

And regardless of how they think a person would react today, remember this: Steve was frozen in suspended animation in 1945. His ideals, way of thinking, and opinions would not be that of a 30 year old in 2003. His habits, way of talking, and morality would be that of the 1940's and it would come out in his mannerisms and speech habits. So he comes accross as nothing but a two-bit phoney. Totally unbelieveable.

While the cap in Avengers runs up to a battalion of men and their commander and says. You are being played for a bunch of fools. if you fire on the others involved you will give the russians and a few other nations an excuse to attack and cause world war III. The soldiers held off attacking and Cap took care of the situation. The whole thing was a plot by Dr. Doom by the way. Cap was ever the field commander during the whole thing and even barked orders at U.S. troops. A much edgier and real conflict situation than the one in the "Captain America" series.

So, call it what you will, but it doesn't wash with me. And again, Marvel will not be getting any more money from me except for classic looking Heroclix and Hardcover Masterworks. If you like the unltimates than fine. More power to ya. I'll stick with my back issues.....

Well, if this is the same promo I'm thinking of you are completely on base here. Those were the sketches for Ultimate Captain America, as seen monthly in The Ultimates. Nothing to do with the Cap you see every month in the Captain America title.

I'm currently waiting to pick up TPB versions of the Captain America series so I can't comment too decisively on the content yet. Cassaday and Hairsine are both great artists though, and the Jae Lee issues should rock as well. It sounds like the Vegas story you are describing is the What Price Glory mini-series going on right now. Between Bruce Jones' boring scripts on Hulk and Steve Rude drawing in his pseudo-Kirby style it sounds like that book is a good one to take a pass on.

Maybe it is what price glory, but it looked and read like the cap from the series....

Interestingly enough, I find that the "frozen in 1945, woken up today" is on one of the aspects that just screams out of Ultimate Captain America. He keeps me coming back to the Ultimates all by his lonesome because, let's face it: Cap woke up in the 60s and said "Fashion is different and people talk funnily." and got on with acting like pretty much everyone else. Ultimates Cap doesn't. He's not giving up the 40s. He got an apartment in his old neighborhood. It's a slum and anyone with good sense would avoid it like the plague, and he's surprised, crestfallen, when one of the many gangs who claim the area as their turf breaks in and steals his Sinatra collection (which he bought again upon being unfrozen, on LP of course). Now, a sensible nineties/modern person would call the police and count it for lost. That's not the way things were in the 40s. He hiked across the street like any man would and beat the holy living cr*p out of those filthy hoodlums. They don't own his neighborhood. When Hank Pym beat his wife, Cap didn't understand that it was a co-dependent relationship and Hank was "on anti-depressants". YOU DON'T TREAT YOUR WIFE THAT WAY. And so Cap commandeered a plane, went to Chicago, and gave Pym what he deserved - a good, old-fashioned, 1940s a**-kicking. Ultimates Cap is so interesting because he's not adapting. He is from the 40s and unlike the rest of the world has not had years of being anesthized to the horse hockey that we think of as everyday life and things that just happen. Give Ultimates a ride, just to see the Captain America that could have happened but didn't so we could get to the plot more quickly.

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

No, Cap was not changed to be more like the Ultimate Cap, the story is an examination of post 9/11 Cap. And what other charecters are you thinking about cause I would love to know.

The End is a great mini, it's still going to be the end of the classic MU, it just doesn't happen in continuity. It's a What If? story written by Jim Starlin, so that he can show off Thanos some more.

Yea, long live DC, they're pretty good to. JSA is an excellent read. Just a sec, shouldn't you hate DC for things like Kingdom Come, The Liberty Bell, and the Unholy Three?

So why would 9/11 change him?? After all, it must have been some explosion to change the history of his life.

But I had heard back before the ultimates started that it was planned to be the end all for the classic MU, it was just changed to a what if later since they slowed the change over to the ultimates for the other titles.

Why? I thought Kingdom Come was an ok read, and it is a possible future for the DC universe, not "THE" diffenitive. In other words, an elseworlds story. What happened to Liberty Bell and the Unholy Three??

What plot am I slowing down??

None of my money goes to Marvel anymore (except whatever percantage of Heroclix stuff they get, not happy bout that either), and they can thank Thunderbolts #76 for that. Anything good I borrow or Byrne-steal. Nuts to J&Q.

You aren't slowing down any plot, bizarrome. I was referring to the Silver Age tendency to back burner character development and get the character up and running as fast as possible to get to the plot. The way that Hal Jordan immediately knew how to do all kinds of stuff with the ring with no explanation. It wasn't until Kyle that we really got to see a learning curve. That sort of thing.

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

Wow, there's a lot of disatisfaction with Marvel at the moment. Personally I think the writing has improved in recent years. Because of the current global situation, Cap is relevent again- seriously, how many fights with the Red Skull could he have before it just got boring?
Same with the X-Men, although I'm sad to see the end of Magneto, how many more times could they fight him? The last few times were pretty poor. Morrisons changes took me a while to get used to, but now I have I think they were needed to shake things up a bit- Clairemonts last run was incomprehensible and things had been going downhill before that.
As for the Ultimate line, I see no evidence of it becoming the main MU, as has been mentioned Marvel are releasing a whole lot of new issue 1's (most of which face early cancellation- try bringing out books people will read, Marvel!)
Thats my 2 cents... Oh, wait, I do have one last complaint- BRING BACK PSYLOCKE!!

Oh... Just wasn't thinking... Need more sleep!!

His origin remains the same, I don't know what you're talking about.

You believe heresay over the internet? I don't.

All of those are examples of Elseworlds. Which is essentially what the Ultimate line is.