OH MY GOD!!! WEASEL! You did NOT just claim that a piece out of a game centuries of years old, and refined over hundereds of years has a BROKEN piece! What kind of IDIOT are you? The QUEEN in chess is BROKEN? MY GOD!! Next it will be the grunts in CHECKERS! Get a GRIP people! Games are JUST THAT-- GAMES!
"The queen in chess is broken"! GEEZ!!

I'm JUST joking, Weasel! Don't get angry!

Don't you know the slammers were considdered broken, thats why the game is no longer arround...

thought I'd chime in my $.04 (inflation)

I don't have a problem with people proposing new rules, or discussing possible rules changes. House rules comparisons are great!

What scares me is the possibility of FAQ updates based on recalibrating the game b/c of 1 piece!

For instance, the "taxis can only carry people of lesser point value", which our local judge really liked. After all, wasp shouldn't be able to carrry hulk.

But then our beloved Vulture becomes worthless! for 15 points, he can maybe carry a con artist or paramedic....but he can't even reach the 27pt support threshold! (IE R Black panther, R Harley, etc)

And you mean to tell me that Doombot couldn't carry a tiny wasp?

My whole collecting methodology would be screwed up by such a rules change...and for what? "Because of firelord...."

Rather than making a rules change, get a CC piece next to firelord, or perplex up your attack.... (You DO play balanced teams, right?) After all, Firelord is an excellent ranged piece, but CC can make things difficule. He can't used RCE on stealthed figures, he has to break away, and he can't be healed! I even had a game in a recent tournament where R invisible girl was beating firelord down!


I'm not talking about building an anti-firelord team or whatever, but build something that can counter most everything you face. A little outwit, a little perplex, ranged combat and CC, and mobility (taxi/TK). Most of your tournament teams should be like this....like a chess team. After all, you can't build a team of all Queens in chess.

I have something in common with all you anti-change guys. I love this game. The difference is that I think it could be much more. I personally want the rules changed/made more consistant/made clearer/made fairer because I like the premise of the game, it is fun, and it could be much funner. Unfortunately, there are some people who have a wack agenda and want rules changed for personal reasons. I am not one of those people. Most people like the game as is. Fine. They have the right to like it. I am not one of those people either. I have a right to not like the rules and post my feelings to that extent. Funny how those that think we are "whining" about the rules only respond (whine) with "don't play then" "you suck" or "learn how to win or deal with it". When have any of these been an issue. These are totally irrelevant to the matter at hand. When someone gives a rational reason on why a power/figure/whatever is misrepresented in cost/effect whathaveyou all they get in response are the same tired huffing and puffing. You don't want the game changed. Good for you. But I do. and there are lot's of us too. And although the game is as is now, we may see our agenda come to light. It may not. Either way, we both have the right to express our feelings about this game.

As far as chess goes. It has evolved into this state over literally 1000 years of tweaking and adding rules, etc. Queens are relatively new actually. En passant even newer. Things change (hopefully for the better). You can try and fight it all you want and blow all the hot air you got. But in the end something has to give.

Back to Heroclix: At the very least a new rules templating needs to be done. For the most part they are poorly written. Barrier takes a move action...OK. I'm Brother hood I get a free move action...OK. I barrier. Well actually, there's a clause that states... This type of thing is piss poor and very confusing and a common occurence throught the rules/PAC/Faq. It's OK if you guys like a convoluted and poorly written rulebook for your games or that you feel that the rulebook FAQ is just peachy. But I like my things a little better quality. It's OK if you're not comic fans and don't care that Spiderman IC doesn't have supersenses, but I like my clix to feel like their comic counterparts, it's OK if you don't mind that Plasticity is useless and that Firelord is broken. That's all OK. I don't mind that you feel that way and want all things untouched and unchanged and left immaculate for you so no one fudges with our game. In that same light, I feel all those things should be questioned, reassessed, and if necessary, remediated. Not everyone likes status quo. You're intentions are in line with mine. I want this game to prosper. But please convince me in a rational manner how change is not necessary.

"BANG!
....
You were saying something about best intentions...
Oh, you were finished. Well, allow me to retort"


onew0rd, I agree that we have something in common. I think we all like the game and no one wants to see the game get ruined, either because of making rules changes, or the lack thereof. I also don't mind people talking about valid rules clarifications or changes and backing it up with specific game examples.

I'll even give you an example of something that seems quirky to me that might need a rules change. There are posts on here talking about stairs and elevated terrain. About how since the top square of stairs is elevated terrain, and the square of stairs next to it is not that you can't make a close combat action. To me, since the rules allow a piece to change elevations by moving from one square to the next, they should also be able to make close combat attacks. However, I can also understand why WK would not want to change this rule. It would be another clarification or stipulation in an already congested rulesbook/FAQ.

As for pieces not accurately representing their comic book personas, all i can say is sorry, but thats how it goes. Some characters have so many powers that it would be possible to give them everything they have. Otherwise you have characters with squares that are half one color and half another and point totals high enough to take on a whole veteran X-Men team by themselves.

And even though we have been comparing chess with Heroclix, there are some remarkable differences. Chess never requires a die roll to determine the outcome of any situation. We are just using chess as an example because it is widely known as a very strategic game. But, in keeping with chess, if its taken over a 1000 years to make it the game it is today, then we really shouldn't be expecting any Heroclix rules changes for another 25 years or so.

And lastly, rules templating. The rules for Heroclix look like they were written as part of a high school essay. I absolutely agree that they need to rewrite the entire rules to the game. Right now, if I have a rules question I have to read the rulebook, then read the FAQ, then check the message boards for rules clarifications. They should gather all this information together and write a new rulebook thats easy to understand with all the rules in it.

Who knows. Maybe they are planning on doing this already. Maybe they are just waiting cuz they know that there are still a lot of rules clarifications that need to be made.

Either way, thanks for the post. I appreciate the lack of whineyness in your defense of the whiners.

You had me until your last line Fishman...who here does not fall under the category of whiner? This whole freaking topic is a big whine! Even you agree that certain things need to change. What's the difference between a new revised rulebook and some new revised characters? or Powers? Seems reasonable to me. The way they price the powers is arbitrary anyways. Even if they make a spreadsheet for the Characters, who says that power X costs 2 and power y costs 3? If it would make the game funner for present and future fans, why the resitance to change?

True, but whining versus rules whiners is not considered whining.

hahaha OK. sure....

It would be considered instructional.

Pulp Fiction is awesome but I don't get why people keep citing chess as if it's a good model to follow. The standard game is played out to the point that its openings are more stereotyped than a comic book plot. It's so simple and predictable that it's possible to figure everything out and so you have to use clocks to stop players sitting there thinking indefinitely. Even then, the standard game moves at a snail's pace.

Bobby Fischer suggested that the back rank of pieces should be randomised at the start to shake things up. That's the state that serious checkers has reached - openings are drawn at random to get players out of the book. Myself, I can only stomach the game if it's jazzed up in some way - fairy chess, cylindrical chess, speed chess, Knightmare, whatever.

You can treat Heroclix like chess - that's exactly how world champion Rex Wycott describes it. But that's not what the game has been designed for. It has been designed to be fast and fun not serious and strategical. That's why it uses dice. That's why you're not supposed to look ahead at the dial. That's why the pieces are colourful comic book characters.

However one approaches the game, it's clear that the game's rule set has not yet achieved the classic status of chess. Like most collectible games, the game and its rules are a work-in-progress, changing every time that there is a new expansion or FAQ. Chess would be more fun if a new piece came out every year but that's not going to happen under FIDE. If you want stability and tradition play chess. If you want change and variety play Heroclix. Ok?

Andrew

Andrew

Thats pretty cool how you just rearranged the letters in your name to get your login name.

Do you think that Bobby Fischer would complain about Outwit if he played Heroclix?

not exactely...

If I don't want to play with FL/BP/Vulture or Ultron/Psylocke or Batman team ability (because I dont like them), thesame loopholes are NOT available to me.

Majority of people...

Well, I'm discussing this possible "rulechange" (which won't happen if WK doesn't feel thesame aboot it)to see if there are more people that feel thesame way.


one-liners like: the Queen is broken, I do consider as trolling a mockery and they do not add to the discussion.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! They are availiable to you. You just choose not to use them. A Big Mac is availiable to you, if you choose to order a Quarter Pounder or go to Taco Bell instead is up to you.

It is YOUR CHOICE to not field those 'broken' figures. If you choose to not field them you forfeit your right to complain about not having the 'loopholes' availiable to you. That is not Hero-Clix's problem to fix. It is your problem to fix.

"Mommy, mommy! He's not playing fair because I won't use my own tools smarter than he does. Can you make it fairer for me because I choose to play dumb?"

I reserve the right to Outwit this thread.

If they leave the "borken" rules, then the people against them will be the whiners.
If they change the rules, the people who use them will be the whiners.
If this thread continues any further, everyone will be whining.

FACT: Either the rules will change or they won't. Unless you have an 'official' petition one way or the other, please stop attempting to convert everyone who reads this thread.

If there's enough people who believe a certain combination of figures/powers is unbalanced, then there's got to be something there. Maybe every single one of those players sucks the big one and just can't handle simple strategy. But I kinda doubt it. Certainly figuring out what exactly is wrong and coming up with an agreeable solution isn't easy, but name-calling and insulting someone's intelligence for even wanting to discuss it is childish and pointless.

I would happy to start up another thread and leave this mess behind if anyone wants to discuss the idea further.

I like playing Scrabble too - it's more fun than chess.

Someone always takes "Andrew" first. See Andrew Season! But whoever takes it never uses it, I find. Weird, eh?

Going back to chess, another reason that the game is broken is that White has a big edge. The ultimate chess game is probably:

white: P-K4
black: resigns

Was it Fischer who said that God opens with the King's pawn? It's the Firelord of chess.

Andrew