Okay... even if they are major changes, why are they worse or more troublesome than the equally major changes that Gardner Fox made to the Flash, the Atom, and a dozen other heroes in the Silver Age? I think that's what Gatharion is asking. Why would these changes cause Fox to roll over in his grave when he made changes that were every bit as drastic at the time?

Because they weren't "changes" -- they were completely NEW characters.

I'm sorry, but what part of that simple statement is so hard to understand? "Barry Allen" is not "Jay Garrick". "Hal Jordan" is not "Alan Scott". "Ray Palmer" is not "Al Pratt". They're not even anagrams. They're entirely different characters with entirely different backgrounds, backstories, supporting casts, etc.

If Robinson had made his Flash a guy named anything BUT Jay Garrick, I'd have had no problem with that. The book would still suck, but at least he'd not be pissing all over my favorite character. Same with Green Lantern -- any name but "Alan Scott" and we'd not be having this thrilling discussion.

But those who are trying to say "It's no big deal because they're completely different characters who just happen to have the same names" strike me as being VERY disingenuous. If they're REALLY supposed to be "different" characters, then Robinson should have gone the extra yard and given them completely different names (as well as the supporting cast's names -- I'm referring to "Joan" in issue #1).

I agree that in order to compare Robinson's revamp with Gardner's Silver Age revamp on the same level, Robinson should have given them all-new alter egos. I also agree that World's Finest, by the legendary Paul Levitz, is a superior book in comparison to Earth 2.

This Earth 2 revamp is nothing compared to what Gardner Fox did with the properties when revamping then for what came to be known as the Silver Age of comics. At the time they were done, though, the revamp was done to breathe new life into an industry dying off and paid off in spades, as Hal Jordan has become the iconic Green Lantern and Barry Allen has become the iconic Flash.

Robinson's revamp wasn't done under the same conditions nor was it done for the same reasons. Sure he's bringing back the characters, but using the same alter egos and supporting cast is not the same as revamping the characters to all-new alter egos.

I don't think Gardner Fox would be rolling in his grave, because as I stated earlier, it's an honor that someone's work would want to be rembered and carried on, even if the elements change up to a degree, like the new OMAC as a love letter to Jack Kirby.

Max... have you ever talked with anyone who was actually around when the Silver Age started? My grandfather, my uncle, these guys who gave me their old golden and silver age comics to read when I was a kid... When Barry Allen showed up, no one thought of it as a NEW CHARACTER. The reaction was "This isn't the Flash I know." Back then, no one cared that Flash used to be Jay Garrick and was now Barry Allen, it was a new version of an existing hero. In the Golden Age, no one's secret identity was a very important part of what drew people to the character (unless it was Clark Kent), or what mattered about him at all, that's something that didn't come until the Silver Age. So when Barry and Hal first showed up, no one who'd read the originals were expecting "new identities," they were expecting the superhero they knew. What you're experiencing now, the way you feel about Earth 2, isn't all that different than some proto-nerds felt back in 1958.

I'm not saying it's not a big deal, but I just don't see how this is any different from what's going on in Teen Titans or JLI, or just about anywhere else in the DCnU. That's not the Tim Drake, Cassie Sandsmark, Gar Logan or Superboy I know. They just have the same names. That's not the Booster Gold, Guy Gardner or Fire and Ice I know, even though Dan Jurgens has been writing them. How is what Robinson is doing with Earth-2 any different, except that he isn't burdened by the "continuity" of a "soft" reboot and can actually make some real changes (like giving Jay a good origin)?

It's a reboot, Max, which, by definition means "new versions of existing characters." It's Battlestar Galactica and JJ Abrams' Star Trek all over again. Some people are going to like it, some people are going to hate it, and some people (like me) will have mixed feelings but can accept it as something different that isn't trying to be what I grew up with.

Is anyone involved in the DC Reboot creating anything new? No. Show me where the new, different characters are. Anywhere? Anyone? Bueller? It ain't happening. I've given up expecting "new" or "different" from comic books. No one seems to be interested in "new" anymore, at least no truly new characters.

Aside from Batman, we've just got "new takes" of even the "new characters" we got pre-Flashpoint. The Green Arrow running around in the DCnU sure as hell isn't anyone's idea of Oliver Queen, Captain Atom is just a watered-down Dr. Manhattan now, and even the newest characters like Jaime Reyes and Jason Rausch aren't really in synch with "what they should be like."

The Superman in DC comics right now is not the Superman I grew to care about since 1986. Hal Jordan stopped being Hal Jordan in 1994 and hasn't really gone back since. I like Francis Manapaul's run on Flash, but even though it's better than Johns', it still isn't my Barry Allen. Tim Drake, Cassie Sandsmark, Gar Logan and Supeboy are basically total reimaginings of characters with those names. Are you pissed about that?

The closest thing to a new character in the entire DC Relaunch was, ironically, Dan DiDio's OMAC. Which was surprisingly a good book, but no one noticed or cared.

But now James Robinson is building a world from the ground up, where there's no confusion over a "soft" reboot, and where, based on what he's done in the past, he can craft a more interesting universe than the other books out there, and give me characters who are at least reminiscent of the ones I care about. I want to see where this is going, because wherever it is, it'll be better and more cohesive than the rest of DC.

Because until the New 52 fully implodes on them, DC won't be going back to what we know and care about. So my choices are either find something that's good in all the bilge (Animal Man, Demon Knights, Batman, Earth 2), or stop reading comics altogether.

I still miss Chuck Dixon and Roy Thomas, but they ain't coming back. Look at my avatar. That's what I miss the most. But it's gone. So for now, I've got Scott Snyder, Kyle Higgins and Jeff Lemire who are turning out good stories despite all the rest of the carp, and James Robinson who is (to me) at least interesting. His work will never again be what it was on Starman, but it's entertaining nonetheless.

So give it a chance if you want, and try and enjoy it for what it is. Or else, you can continue to wallow in the dissatisfaction of what you feel for the DC Relaunch.

While I appreciate the previous post, the quoted part stuck out to me, as there are books that created new characters, albeit also using pre-existing characters to go along with them. Paul Cornell's Demon Knights (a title you later reference) actually created 3 new characters in the group - Exoristos (the Amazon), Al Jabr, and the Horsewoman. While most of the created characters in the new Suicide Squad by Adam Glass end up cannon fodder, Yo-Yo has stuck around, even after King Shark ate him. Lastly, Paul Levitz is still cranking out new characters in Legion of Super-Heroes, though the names are lost on me as they were introduced in last month's issue (#10) and I haven't re-read it yet.

And I don't recall a team like Demon Knights being done before, unless I missed that moment in DC history. I wouldn't have picked it up unless I had read the solicit for #2 about Mordru. I'll take my Legion connections where I can get them.

Your other points are well made, though, and I can agree to them, especially about JLI since the Giffen/ DeMatteis run was so great. There are new characters to be found, though usually they're done moreso in Indy titles, like DnA's new Hypernaturals by Boom Studios.

Yes, I take your point, but mine was more (hyperbolicly) trying to get across that there are no new characters headling books, like Earth-2 or anything else. We see new supporting/minor characters all the time. I'd hardly say Ex, Al Jabr or the Horsewoman are the headliners or main draws of Demon Knights, fun though the book is. The only "new" character, as Max seems to want if he can't have the real JSA, to headline a book was OMAC. So, in that vein, I don't see how Earth-2 is any different for us JSA fans than Teen Titans and Superboy are for the fans of either the Wolfman/Perez era or Geoff Johns team.

Bottom line: Until and unless DC goes back to the pre-Flashpoint universe we will never have any version of our characters that is actually what we grew up with. Not Superman, not Batman, not Wonder Woman or Flash, not the Teen Titans or, sadly, the JSA. Anyone who expects differently is deluding themselves.

You know, honestly, since this whole thing began, I've been hoping (and still am) that it will turn out to be nothing more than DC's attempt at "Heroes Reborn," and will hopefully be forgotten about just as easily in a couple of years. At this point, it doesn't look like it's gonna work that way, but I can still hope.

And even if not, my original pre-Crisis multiverse has existed in my head since 1987, and is still there. I guess I can make room for the post-Crisis universe there, too.

"Wallow in dissatisfaction". Load your language much?

Here's a quick whack with the cluebat: I don't have to like the changes. And since this is a discussion board, I can feel free to discuss it as much as I damn well please. I don't know where you're from, but that's hardly "wallowing" around here. If I'm still doing it a year from now, feel free to use the word "wallow" all you like. But three issues in? Nah, sorry, I'm not done being pissed off yet.

And while I'm thinking about it, do you know why the new revamped DC Comics web site has no message board?

Because after the reboot and prior to the revamped site, the old message boards were FILLED with posts from longtime readers "wallowing in dissatisfaction" (as TD would have it), who did NOT like what they were reading in the New 52 and weren't shy about saying so. I'm hardly alone in being dissatisfied.

Actually, Max, I never said you had to like anything, nor did I add "or shut up" as others might have done. This is a discussion board, yup.

But it seems like you like very little of what DC is putting out, not just Earth 2, and you didn't like all that much of what came pre-Flashpoint either, if I recall correctly. So I'm wondering why you thought Earth 2 would be any different for you, and I'm wondering why you're even bothering to read DC Comics at all any more since it seems you're not finding anything you like. Unless you just like to complain, and if that's the case, well, this is the internet, so have fun.

You also never really addressed any of the major points in my posts, so, well, there goes the 'discussion' part of things... Eh, I tried.

Actually, you're wrong. I was the other guy (besides you) who was talking up JSA on this very msg board as being a great book.

And often being told how wrong I was about that, too.

The root of my dissatisfaction was that I had high hopes that Earth-2 might be something special, the way All-Star Squadron had been back in the day. Instead, it's just more half-baked, poorly thought out, and badly executed crap. Just more business as usual in an overwhelmingly crappy industry.

The reason why most comics sell 15,000 - 20,000 copies a month isn't because "kids are too distracted by video games" or whatever other lame (but convenient) excuse publishers care to toss out. The reason they sell badly is because it's what they deserve -- it's because most comics suck.

And the only reason I continue to bother with them at all is because I have this (admittedly increasingly vain) hope that the books might stop being "all about the pretty pictures" and instead become a valid storytelling (emphasis on "story") medium once again, the way they used to be -- the kind of medium which readers care enough to invest in, both financially and emotionally.

But when I read a book like Earth-2, some small part of me hopes the end comes sooner rather than later.

Of course. Most of all feedback on the internet is going to be negative fanboy reactions. And of course you're not alone. Don't go getting a persecution complex, mate.

If the DC boards were still up, I'd be on there, writing essay after essay about how much I detest the new Green Arrow, Firestorm, Red Hood and the Outlaws and Blue Beetle. About how they should let Geoff Johns leave Green Lantern as he so obviously wants to do, about how Billy Batson should never be portrayed as the "angry, maladjusted teenager" like he is in the SHAZAM story, and about how Barbara Gordon is infinitely better as Oracle than Batgirl.

There's plenty of bigger fish to fry, plenty of worse mistakes, than blaming James Robinson for doing exactly the same thing that John Byrne and George Perez did 25 years ago. You're perfectly entitled to feel he's doing it poorly, but don't try and tell me that Earth-2 isn't doing for "Jay Garrick" and "Alan Scott" what Man of Steel did for "Clark Kent."

It goes hand in hand with the paranoia. A strange faceless man in a trenchcoat and fedora keeps going through my trash.

OK, I'll concede that one.

It's not just the industry that's overwhelmingly crappy. It's humanity. Culturally and aethestically, we've devolved greatly over the last 20-30 years, and are continuing to do so at an alarmingly exponential rate if my generation and those younger than me are any indication.

I highly doubt we will ever again see the likes of an All-Star Squadron, Infinity, Inc or Starman. No comic book will ever again provoke that level of emotional, imaginative investment as I had for those characters, because the writers just aren't that good anymore, and they don't have to try to be, because society as a whole isn't that intelligent anymore. The closest book to that level that's being put out right now? Jonathan Hickman's Fantastic Four, IMO.

But that doesn't mean that today's lesser comics can't still be fun. I'm having fun with Earth-2 so far, even though issue 3 was pretty dang slow. I'm having fun with Demon Knights, Flash, Batman, Nightwing, Animal Man and Frankenstein Agent of SHADE. I'm even having a modicum of fun with Teen Titans.

But I will never, ever, be expecting to see anything like All-Star Squadron again. Not until society collapses totally and we have to start over from stone knives and bearskins.

That whistling sound you hear overhead is the incoming rep.