I'm just going to address point #5.

How many times did she snap Gwen Stacy's neck?

More to the point, she was apparently possessed (citation needed, as comics I have not read, though this is what I understand) and not responsible for her actions through a combination of that and mental instability (though why the hell didn't they give her some consultations with Doc Samson instead of a ####ing amnesia spell regarding her kids is an argument I'll save for another day). I can perfectly understand why the Avengers wouldn't give her over to the X-Men for a little "frontier justice".

As far as Osborn is concerned... he's a life-long villain that has conspired with other villains while being "the hero," which was just for him to obtain more and more power. If you don't believe me, the whole "saving the world from the Skrulls" was a naked power grab, because if it weren't for Osborn stealing that info from Deadpool, that would have been Nick Fury blowing up the Skrull Queen and not Osborn. Frankly, the fact that Osborn rose into that position despite his background is completely unbelievable to me. With his history, he wouldn't be qualified to be the NYC dogcatcher, let alone "director of the Agency Formerly Known as SHIELD and will be again once we realize how badly we #### this up by giving this idiot power."

tl;dr? Bad writing screwed up both of these characters. Moreso Wanda, who's been the perennial "too much power makes me a victim" syndrome for the past... what? 15 years now? How long HAS it been since Disassembled?

(And hey, Wanda is an interesting character concept, but damn, they messed her up a LOT along the way. THANKS BENDIS!)

Osborn took Skrull intel to help advance his plans but when the battle took out in Washington he was there only with the T-bolts protecting the city. After that he went to New York to help against the Skrull invasion still.
He was already judged before and in a way or another already paid for his crimes when he was put in charge of the T-Bolts. For the US he was reformed. If somebody goes to jail when he is out he has paid for his crimes.
And in a way or another everyone even actual politicants are there just to have more power. In his ways still Osborn wanted to protect the US even if he used his methods, for his crimes since he took the place of Tony Stark he has still to be judged.
Instead Scarlet Witch has committed mass murder and no one says nothing, surely she was insane but even Osborn was, still, surely the body count is on Scarlet Witch's favor. If "bad guys" have to pay Scarlet Witch has too.
I'm tired of this we are the Avengers and we are untochable before the law.
And by the way all the Avengers in AvX should be processed because they were hunted by the world and almost surely they had a part in making the Phoenix 5 go crazy. They acted for the good but to make what they believed the good thing they have made things worse and a lot of "evil" people in history had their same excuse

Sorry Marvel but the writer was right when he brought back Wonder Man which said that the Avenger have to disassemble for their crimes

I used to really enjoy the X-men, and then as I got older I started realising just what a bunch of self imposed martyrs they all were. The 'no one gets us we cannot associate and have to do our own secret thing to save our *race*' is a bit old hat for them, and gotten old.

When have they really pushed to get out onto non X-teams. The Champions, despite being a not so stellar story, was at least a good attempt by some X-men to move into the main stream and away from the line of bull coming out of Rogue's mouth in Uncanny Avengers.

Honestly, a lot of mutants didn't want to be mutants. Many had tried to obtain the 'cure' before the X-men kiboshed that because it wasn't right to take away mutant gifts (oh please, what about people who get plastic surgery to change their nose, or folks who dye their hair? If there is a way to have a head on your shoulders instead of in your chest, wouldn't you take that option and why is that option wrong?).

Scarlet Witch has gotten off to easy, and what she did was wrong, but did we NEED to force jumpstart the mutant mill again?

My final toughts on AvX and Marvel:

Cyclops was right, I never liked him but now is one of the coolest character in the Marvel universe.
I never liked too much the Avengers before (mostly because almost all of their stories are the worst written in the comics and even if they have an enormous roster I don't like anyone of them in particular) but now I'm just tired of them they weren't right on anything. Marvel has to stop pumping them up they are nowhere the best team in Marvel they have to be shut down.
I have almost dropped every comics made by Marvel and to think that the X-Men are going to be shuffled with the Avengers it makes me sick because the X-Men are going to have their worst run ever.

For now I believe the only Marvel comics I'll read are: Uncanny X-Force, Age of Apocalypse (both of which are going downhill) and the cosmic stories. The rest will remain on the shelf.

The only good thing that AvX has done is making me desire the Phoenix Five and Dark Phoenix Cyclops to be made in heroclix.

If you been following Scarlet Witch she has been going through a path of redemption for what she did. And this is over 8 years of a return but people still hate her in the comic, which is understandable but who could compare her and Scott? Wanda lost it because of her powers she was born with. Scott lost it with seeking more power

But with how much consideration for the idea of are the people of the world then going to get dependent on all this stuff being given to them for free? What was their plan beyond "fix all the worlds problems"? Were they planning on fixing all the worlds problems for the rest of their lives? And were they prepared for what would happen when people would eventually start to expect them to take care of all their problems instead of maybe trying to fix some of those problems for themselves?

And they also had Emma running around killing people she claimed deserved it, at the very least.

This is the problem I have with the "Phoenix Five" thing and how they're supposedly this group that's able to make the world perfect - sooner or later they're going to mess up, because they're still mortals and they still have flaws. Except when they mess up, the consequences are going to be that much worse because they're that much more powerful.

That's the same problem I have with people trying to portray Doom as some kind of misunderstood genius would could easily solve all the worlds problems if the heroes just got out of his way and let him rule the world as he saw fit.

This kind of thing - trying to sell the X-Men as some sort of oppressed minority as an allegory for the real world - I think is a major reason why I've never been much a fan of them, especially since I started reading comics regularly.

For one, it's absurd that you've got mutants portrayed as some kind of minority that's hated by the majority of the world when at the same time you've got groups like the Avengers running around. And what's the real different between people like Captain America and Thor and Ms. Marvel and Wonder Man vs. the X-Men? When you get down to it, the only real differences are when they got their powers. The X-Men have their Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, the Avengers have their evil superpowered enemies like the Masters of Evil.

Unless you're going to look at the X-Men and tell them "You need to stop separating yourself away from society and SHOW people they've got nothing to fear rather than blaming them for being scared", I can't help but wonder why the Marvel Universe didn't either start accepting Mutants as superheroes who happen to be born with their powers or start mistrusting 99% of the worlds superpowered beings years ago.

For another thing, no one ever seems to think that people might actually be justified in maybe being scared by people who are born with superpowers, especially when some of them run around declaring themselves "evil" and making a mess of things. Not the actions they take as result, of course, but the fear itself. Magneto's and the Brotherhood have probably done much to set back the cause they claim to represent as anyone over the years.

It's especially jarring when I hear the argument that the Mutants are supposed to be some kind of allegory for real-world minorities, because in the real world, people aren't born with the ability to control your mind or shoot laser beams out of their eyes. You know how people make a ruckus every times there's a gun shooting somewhere and people try and bring up the argument of new gun laws or how we need to get them off the streets? Think about that, and then think about how people might actually react if these guns they wanted to get off the streets were instead superpowers people were born with.

If they want to play that story for allegory, they really ought to be considering the full implications of it.

The most recent era of isolation on the part of the X-Men wasn't due to the X-Men saying they didn't want to be part of humanity; it came when the number of mutants had been annihilated and the government forced all mutants into one place, the Xavier School.

Cyclops tried to be more open and work with humanity when he joined forces with the mayor of San Francisco, but Norman Osborn half-obliterated the city for that, which made the X-Men fall back again, this time to Utopia.

During AvX, the Phoenix Five said they were going to start an era of peace and prosperity, long before they went crazy. Aside from their strong statements that the world would live under Pax Utopia, the Phoenix Five tried to find ways for the X-Men to solve problems by helping local governments and people create progressive solutions.

The Phoenix Five were stable until the Avengers poked them with a stick.

I, personally, would have liked to have seen Emma be the main villain force. She had a clear transition in character, fighting the force inside her, then killing people for crimes they'd long atoned for. Cyclops held it together, until the writers/editors decided he needed to start trying to kill Hope for no reason.

You've missed the point. Cyclops isn't a hero. He hasn't really been a hero since Messiah Complex and maybe not since Decimation. He's a world leader and has taken responsibility for an endangered people. He can't think about things like the greater good, or protecting a world that fears and hates him.

From a practical standpoint the Avengers invaded sovereign soil of a foreign country and threatened their leader. That was an act of war.

I posted this somewhere else and can't seem to find it anymore, so I'll try to remember the post.

I want to be an Avenger so I can get away with whatever the hell I want! I can go punch babies and nobody will be mad because I'm an Avenger! Seriously people, Wanda warps reality to impose her father as supreme dictator. When that doesn't work out for her, she Decimates an entire RACE? It's OK, it was only her time of the month. Iron man Decides that everyone with powers either needs to register or be locked up? The whole ####ty store ending with Captain America locked up and later killed? It's perfectly fine, we'll just "reboot" Tony! Captain America the Zombie comes in with ####ing Jackboots on and declares a little girl be locked up because of her birth? Noooo problemo man! We'll just drag Wanda out of hiding and have her pull some more of her mystic mumbo jumbo bull#### to fix it! Yay now all mutants have their powers back and we made the phoenix go away!

Honestly what the #### has been going on in comics lately? Why is it that the heroes stopped fighting the bad guys and started fighting each other? Why is it that when one of the Dip#### Brigade has a Bad Idea which was proven a bad idea in the 80's (Days of Future Past anyone?) it's not only going to happen, but we'll screw over non Avengers more after?

I can't say I'm pro or anti cyclops because I don't know who cyclops is. I'm not really in favor of how anyone is portrayed in the storyline, maybe Hope, but that's about it.

And Power corrupts. Anyone who thinks peace being enforced on high by benevolent 'deities' is some kind of real peace is delusional. You can't enforce peace, you have to make it a available, make it the best choice. Many of these comic events to me seem like those ridiculous hypothetical questions I used to talk about when I was 13, like "Would you sleep with your mom if it saved the world?" Who the F___ Cares, that's not anything like a real situation. Besides the whole thing kind of reminds me of a badly written version of Johns 'Thy Kingdom Come" storyline in the JSA, with some new details added admittedly, but with all the characters of the marvel universe shoehorned into roles they'd never play.

And If confronting a deity drives that deity mad, then that deity should not be in charge of anything.

[quote=CapnMorgan;6847436Why is it that the heroes stopped fighting the bad guys and started fighting each other?[/QUOTE]

I think this gets down to the core problem with comics today. Heroes have villains they could fight, but it's "better" to fight another hero. Civil War, Schism, AvX, even DC's in the game with Infinite Crisis and the upcoming Trinity War.

Comic book heroes aren't heroes any more. They're self-important idiots who enjoy hurting people.

No one's a hero anymore, that's one of the reasons I've finally given up on comics. It's not enough to do simple stories about good versus evil. It's not enough to take a character or group, put him/her/them in a situation, and let them grown and react naturally. No, they have to be shoehorned into roles to tell some writer's grand idea. The Cyclops I knew was a hero, was a lead by example kind of guy. Even after the "Boy Scout" days ended and he finally grew into his own character, he did it as someone that was trying to live up to the ideals of the guy that practically raised him.

Nothing in Cyclops' background would ever explain his change into Magneto-lite which staying true to the character's continuity. There's another dirty word these days: continuity. Is it really too much to ask that everything that happens in a comic makes some sort of sense? I mean, sure, we're talking about super-powered beings, so there's some suspension of disbelief expected. But we're talking about a man that watched the Phoenix Force turn the love of his life into a planet-obliterating psychotic mess, but yet he's perfectly willing to let it take control of him if it means even a slim chance to furthering his own goals?

You're right, that's not a hero. That's a sociopath. That's someone that's lost sight of what really matters in the world. And that's NOT the Cyclops I knew. And this kind of thing keeps happening more and more these days. I'm tired of watching hero versus hero in nonsensical attempts to tell a "deep" story that really just falls flat on its face. Tony Stark as the face of superhuman registration? Norman Osbourne as the guy in charge of national security? Cyclops as a pathetic Magneto wannabe? This isn't character growth, it's piss-poor writing. And there's no excuse for it.

One HUGE diffrence between the upcoming trinity war and AvX: the reason WHY.

AvX had 0 issues to establish the WHY, and 12 issues to handle the HOW (and badly at that). Trinity War is still a minium of a year out and they are laying the foundations as to the WHY. THAT is what makes all the diffrence. You have groups of people who are the next best things to walking gods, and they are GOING to disagree, sometimes Violently. So "Hero fighting Hero", expecially in a world of grey, is going to happen more often.

And comic book Heroes have ALWAYS been self-important idiots. What kind of ego does it really take to put on a pair of tights (or armor, or uniform, or etc..) and say that YOUR view of reality is the RIGHT and MORAL one. How many people have been assaulted, thrown into super-max prisons until they rot or escape, and been denied their right to a trial? The "Heroes" are JUST as bad as the people they are fighting most of the time.

But when they fight each other it makes since?
Am I right? Civil war: both sides had a right to feel the way they did and was done pretty well. Just like schism another idea was thought of one party but instead of talking it out thy just move to put those plans in effect. As leaders it is understandable to take charge but expect others to not to agree and even fight for what they believe in.
A vs X was the same as well.
I don't think it was useless fighting but passion behind each side.

Also came across this in a forum
Seemed intriguing


"Prof x
>Lied to Scott his entire life, thinking of ways to kill his entire students (Xavier Protocols) while training them
>Would secretly train and almost kill his brother Vulcan, making him insane.
>Tried to heal the Scarlet Witch, which caused House of M.
>Became Onslaught after attacking Magneto like an #######.

Cyclops
>Has spent his entire life with the goal to protect Mutantkind
>Has done so almost perfectly
>Saved the world by merging with Apocalypse
>Saved New York City by a mentally insane Xorn, even losing the love of his life in the fray.
>Becomes the headmaster instead of letting the dream die with Xavier leaving like an ####### for Genosha
>After House of M, saves almost every living Mutant
>When the government labels them a threat, he moves them out of U.S. soil
>Protects them day in and day out. Doesn't mind not being liked as that's not his goal.
>Phoenix heads for Earth, Scott has been told what is meant to happen by his son from the future
>The Avengers #### it up. Cyclops still tries to save the world as best as possible despite the Avengers ####ing everything up.
>After multiple attacks and losing the other Phoenix hosts, Cyclops goes Dark Phoenix and as shown in Killen's run, doesn't even understand what is going on.
>Wakes up,only to find out that he killed Xavier.
>Is willing to die, having lost all will to live. The only thing keeping him going is other Mutants need his protection still. "

gangsternerd, I think that's a solid summation.

I think it lays out a lot of the details that have gotten Cyclops fans, especially long-term Cyclops fans, incredibly irritated.