We got a fantastic answer from normalview earlier in the thread, but I'm waiting to hear an orange's confirmation on whether or not Iceman deals his regular damage when an opponent is hit, or if he just applies the tokens. I imagine, due to the absence of any guidance on the subject that the general tone of the thread is accurate, and we're supposed to deal damage normally. Which, when Perplex enters the equation is just incredible to consider.

I couldn't be happier with the prospect of an Iceman that is super dooper awesome.

Ran the numbers, under ideal circumstances with the UB and one perplex, barring any crit hits it adds up to 33 damage against one character

First off, the wording for Iceman's power is so horrid that I don't know what their true intention is for the way it works. I can tell you how it reads, though.

Nowhere in his power does it say the phrase "make an attack that deals no damage." So the attack he makes against each opposing character is dealing his normal damage.

The lack of "when" before "placed" says that the attack is only happening once all tokens have been put down. The action hasn't resolved, but the blocking terrain tokens have all been put down. The "just" is in there so that you don't consider other blocking terrain tokens that were placed outside of this use of barrier.

Since the damage from # of action tokens doesn't say "increase the damage dealt," this damage is separate from Iceman's normal attack damage, and therefore can be reduced separately from the attack.

The area where this still raises questions for me (based on how the power is written), is whether the damage from the # of action tokens triggers Mystics damage. We know that Rules Deputies have said that the incap damage when 2 action tokens triggers Mystics, so I would assume that since you're making an attack that results in damage (albeit a roundabout way), that you can be dealt Mystics "feedback" damage twice for the overall action when you target a character with the Mystics Team Ability. The two parts of dealing damage are separate, yet still technically from attacks, so shouldn't they both trigger Mystics?

This whole area is fishy, as it's yet another power from this set that was poorly written.

All they needed to do to yield what I assume should be the intended result was to say:
Iceman can use Barrier. When he does, after actions resolve make a close combat attack targeting all opposing characters adjacent to a blocking terrain marker he just placed. Give each hit character an action token and increase the damage dealt to each hit character by the number of action tokens it now has. Divide damage normally.

Yeah, that's my take on it as well, and what I was trying to convey earlier in the thread. I suspect that's how it will eventually come down. It works like a close combat version of a multiple target ranged attack, with the benefit of assigning action tokens/damage. I suspect though that the damage from the close combat attack is just the damage for the tokens, since it mentions that "each hit character is dealt 1 damage for each action token it now has." If it was intended to be in addition to Iceman's standard damage, it would read "each hit character is dealt 1 *additional* damage for each action token it now has." It's just supposed to be a souped-up barrier, not an omega-level attack.

I'll hang on and wait for a final ruling from design. I wish they'd take a little more time to consider the wording on some of this stuff. It'd certainly save me a few headaches as a judge.

Except it doesn't say "make an attack that deals no damage." That's a common, necessary phrase that characters must have on their power to stipulate that the attack won't use their damage value and make "normal" damage. Most of the time, these special powers specifically use Incapacitate, a power which says that it "deals no damage," and this whole issue is moot. Someone like Silver Banshee makes her Incap attack, resolves the action, THEN deals damage based on the action tokens...so they easily separate the attack (to make sure it hits) from the unique way of dealing damage.

Now, if they forgot to include the phrase of "deals no damage" for the attack, then it obviously changes things. They can omit specific words that would help in explaining what is going on, but to omit an important rules phrase seems like more than just a mistake.

Please tell me this is being reviewed by all the judges. I don't believe the makers intended a 91 point figure to deal this much damage (or even close to this much damage) to a single figure in 1 turn.

I know we have all had our issues with decisions made by Wizkids in the past, but I still like to believe they do care about the balance and playability of the game.

It does take one more turn to set up than other alpha strikes, but it's a three turn series of actions that leads to that number.

That's *also* a valid point. Like I said, I'm just trying to figure out the frustrating wording. I think the *intent* was for it to work the way I described it, and I can see how that version works with the way it's worded. On the flip side, I totally understand that we work with the wording and not the intent, and I absolutely see how that wording can be interpreted as this being capable of some serious damage. Barring an official ruling from design, it pretty much comes down to play it the way your venue rules it until such a clarification comes down.

Even without setup turns and using Iceman's printed values he can do 19-20 damage to a single target who doesn't block damage (either no damage reducers or had reducers countered) if he hits all attacks. 19 if the target started with no tokens and 20 if it already had one from taking an action.

None of that is factoring in perplex/empower/utility belt bonuses, or critical hits, and with Spiral's portals and Iceman's sidestep it can be done of the first turn you can attack your opponent. (Obviously can't happen during first turn immunity)

Either way that's completely absurd.

Any real clarification on this? I'm a pretty Iceman fan and I will be using him so...kinda would like to know, because I don't think I'm using him to his full potential.

I'm worried I'm using it beyond his potential

Maybe this question has been asked, I read the thread and don't remember seeing it, when given a second action token, does this character take pushing damage? And if so, every turn after that should deal 1 penetrating damage extra for each hit. That's...pretty insane if it does.

(Which I'm TOTALLY cool with. I've been waiting for a super potent Iceman)

All,

This is a complex issue that has the Rules Team going through several possible wording conflicts. I have pushed this issue up to Game Development. MOre to follow!

NM

Thanks a ton for updating us on this. Even if it becomes a couple of weeks before Game Development gets back to you, I appreciate knowing what step it's at.

If the character doesn't have willpower or anything that would allow them to not take pushing damage I believe that would be the case.

Seconding this. Thanks, Necromagus!