It's going to change again.

They're redefining beginning of turn to be more in line with Mystique now. It's not going to stick (just like they did once they realized allowing pogs to attack Mystique opened up a can of worms).

We might get another edit or two before this is done.

Its not really redefining anything, at least not recently. This is how the Triggering E&C entry has explained things since it was introduced. Their original answer for RM wasn't in-line with that from the beginning.

This ruling messes with his functionality a little (since you can't Sidestep into adjacency to get the trigger now). If anything, I think there might be an errata so that RM actually functions the way he was intended, which their original answer allowed.

I can't think of anything else off the top of my head that this impacts, though I'm sure there's something.

ID cards...

What about them?

They use the same wording. Unless this ruling is to apply to triggers only, then you wouldn't be able to take free actions before using an ID card either.

Yes you would. They trigger at the beginning of the turn, then you choose at what point in the BoT phase to resolve it. This ruling is only going to impact things like Radioactive Man, where the effect actually has a two part trigger. Normal BoT triggers are not going to function any differently.

And what else would a ruling that is specifically about the timing of triggers apply to, other than triggers?

So as someone else mentioned does Anarky's bombs use the same ruling as Radioactive man.

BOMB MARKER: At the beginning of your turn, if an opposing character is within 3 squares, you may roll a d6 that can't be rerolled.

Personally speaking I still don't fully understand what is going on here, is it just triggered effects that state "at the beginning of your turn..." that look for the trigger before other effects are resolved or actions given. It would be helpful if some examples could be given so I can get my head around it.

The part that doesn't make sense (with the current wording) is that the trigger is only checked once during the beginning of the turn. There's nothing rules wise that supports that.

So if at a given time one BoT trigger is checked, all other game effects that rely on a trigger to be checked at the BoT simultaneously are checked before any of them resolve. They all use the same conditions that were in play when the first of them were checked?

The Bombs will trigger at the beginning of the turn, before anything else can happen. If there's an opposing character within 3, then when you go to resolve the effect, you decide whether to make the roll. Between the trigger and the resolution, that opposing character may have been moved out of the Bombs radius (by a free action TK or knockback, or whatever), in which case, you could decide not to roll.

If there wasn't a character within 3 when the trigger was checked, then TKing/knocking back/whatever to move an opposing character closer during the BoT phase still would not cause the Bombs to trigger.

So basically its: (triggers are checked) then (resolved triggered effects and other free actions in any order you wish). The second part is no different than what we've always done.

Correct.

There kinda is. If the triggering event is "at the beginning of the turn", then that only happens once, which is the at the very start of the beginning of turn phase. Which, is in line with the Triggering E&C entry. Nothing in the rules says that you get to check for "at the beginning of the turn" triggers continuously during the phase. The removed RM ruling said you could decide when to *check* for the trigger, which also wasn't supported by the rules.

Keep in mind, a lot of this is fairly new terminology, at least from a technical rules perspective. It used to be "at the beginning of turn" functionally meant "during the beginning of the turn". Now, it means "at the start of the beginning of the turn phase". While those are two very different things, the actual impact of the change on existing game elements is fairly minimal, but it gives design more to work with in the future, as far as when/how powers work. In theory, anyway.

The triggering E and C isn't what's being changed here. It's the beginning of the turn E and C (and entry in the rule book for that matter).

(Quoting for completeness of argument, not because I think anyone here isn't aware of these)

[C]During the "beginning of turn" phase, the active player decides the order to apply "beginning of turn" effects, including effects activated by free actions. The active player may choose to activate any free actions that don't normally have to occur during the beginning of the turn before or after activating effects or free actions that must occur during the beginning of the turn.

[C]The “beginning of turn” ends with the first non-free action given to a character, unless that non-free action specifically states that it can be given during the beginning of the turn.

[C]The “beginning of turn” ends with the first non-free action given to a character, unless that non-free action specifically states that it can be given during the beginning of the turn.

And for completeness, from the rule book:

EFFECTS THAT OCCUR AT THE BEGINNING
OR END OF A ROUND OR TURN
Before the first player takes his or her turn in a round, effects that occur “at the beginning of a round” resolve. When a player begins his or her turn, first resolve and end all effects that last “until the beginning of your turn” or “until your next turn,” then resolve all effects that occur “at the beginning of your turn.” Game effects activated by free actions may also be resolved during the “beginning of your turn” or the “end of your turn.”

Bolded just to point out that "at the beginning of the turn" is by no means a new phrasing. But this IS a new interpretation.

The beginning of the turn happens only once and has always only happened once. But (per all the rules documents we have) it does not end until the first non-free action that cannot be given during the beginning of the turn is given. Which means, that trigger can happen any time until the end of the beginning of the turn.

For it to work the way they want (without changing our understanding of beginning of the turn) they need to add to the Trigger E and C or errata Radioactive Man to match Mystique and Lex's turn (ie, "If Radioactive Man began the turn...").

If they errata Radioactive Man, oh well. We have at least two other figures with that wording (and maybe more).

If they add to the Trigger E and C (to restate this ruling) that's fine, but they will have made a very counter-intuitive change (that this one type of effect has primacy because of this one piece). Which I find odd, considering they just started using close/range attacks because close/range combat attacks were too close to close/range combat actions.

But none of that seems to make any sense. Which won't stop any of it from coming to pass but does seem indicate this was a ruling that wasn't thought out and was just responding to further questions.

I haven't had the time to check for the powers so it might not really matter. Right now. But it will only be more confusing in the future for one ruling to directly contradict the Rule Book explanation for "at the beginning of the turn."

From the rules we have, they still are the same thing. This one ruling doesn't change the written rules or it completely overturns them which means we're in that space of "identical wording leads to different effects". Which is part of why I don't like it as is.

Quick note: (including duplicate dials) 181 figures have a power or trait that says "at the beginning of the turn." If its meaning has changed, every one of those pieces has now been changed. Which still might not be a big deal, but it is something to think about.

And again (doing this while watching TV) this ruling is no longer valid: http://win.wizkids.com/bb/viewtopic....edaa535#p21311.

Placing the tokens triggers at the beginning of the turn. Not a huge deal, but it is a stealth change they probably didn't even think about.

added this to make it easier to follow (for me)

I agree with your assessment. the new "At the BoT..." interpretation would nullify the linked ruling. I am gonna send a can-opener to HCRulesteam as a Secret Santa gift

This is what I was meaning. Triggered effects vs Activated effects. The ruling "The check for the trigger happens at the beginning of the turn" could mean this only applies to triggers, or it could mean it applies to everything with this wording and this particular ruling is referencing RM's trigger. If they had said "The check for triggers happens...", then it would be more explicit. However, I take it our understanding is that this only applies to triggers, and not activated effects. As such, that 665 character list is probably much shorter, and will be less impacted. Just triggered effects that could be triggered at beginning of turn(or end of turn I suppose), and could make use of a free action beforehand are being cut back.

1. "The Rhino's Charge" triggers at the beginning of the turn.
2. Placing the tokens can resolve at any point during the phase.
3. Modify defense is a Passive effect.
4. Removing tokens is an Activated effect.
5. If both are removed is a Triggered effect within the confines of the Activated effect.