@Nighthawk
Good points on raising 3 cap transport costs evening out the tank drop. Tanks still need better stats than the AoD tanks and the 8 attacks that the non-DF Tokugawas have though.

DF still does have the Garrot 3 cap transport, so until January, they still have a pretty maneuverable and cheap tank drop.

Good points on the TGR's. The BR TGR's are actually in many ways scarier than the DF Tokugawa. They have an 11 IT with 3 damage if you don't have AP they are very tough to take down. Everyone was excited about the TGR's...it shows people are "racially" biased against DF...;)

@Cloudmoon
Interesting. The rulebook states:
"Passengers are not counted toward formation size limits and may not be given orders. Passengers do not count toward victory conditions and cannot use any of their special equipment." (pg. 18)

From this (and other discussion around here) I figured they didn't count for anything and you couldn't give them FP bonuses.

However, the rules also state this:
"Friendly units may begin the game as passengers of a transport." (pg. 18)

I think that based on this, you are right. You can apply FP to transport passengers. I do think this definitely needs a FAQ to clarify though.

As far as I know, no clarification has been made on using FP abilities on units inside transports. We inititially talked about this regarding the SW FP with the SW Hanse inside a transport (the player was trying to bump it to its sweet spot while in transit).

@eMouse. Take a look at the mechs in AoD. How many of them have Reactive or Hardened armor at all? Very very very few. Sure you can go with a H mech and spend out the *** for Reactive Armor but that is once again going back to the days of old when having a particular unit in a set now dictates to the rest of the game what units out there are 'usable' vs 'junk'. 12 attack with IT out to 19" for 4 damage. How many mechs did that threat just neutralize? How much did the Dust Storm PC card just shoot up in worth?

Shrugs. Anyway.

Is it as bad as the DI of old? No. But did the game need another tank-drop specialist? Not really. I will dance in the streets the day WK gets the idea to start putting Cap 0 on heavy and assault tanks so they can't be carted around on a platter like so much cheese.

The difference between this tank and the TGR is that while the BR version is the best TGR, at least 3 of the TGR versions are quite usable. So there's no complaint that one faction gets gold while the others all get tin. This DF Tokugawa Turd is the only usable version and it's so supremely usable that, while it's not a Schmitt, it is the only tank we've seen in 2 sets that anyone will actually use. That makes it unbalancing.

You and me both, dude. Unfortunately for us Draddog is the ultimate tankdroplover. It's his proud contribution to this game and I wouldn't be surprized if he would rather let the game die than to get tankdrop out of the rules.

In some ways this tank could be called a bit more absurd than the Schmitt. For the simple reason of cost. The Schmitt was lethal ... but it was also expensive. Back in the day when games were 300 points you could cart 2 tank drops around but would have little left in points for support.

Imagine 2 groups of:

M Zahn
DF Tokugawa
2 DF ATV (flanking the Zahn)

Less than 250 points.

Now tack on a BR Sprint with a M Fa Shih and now you can dash in with the Sprint from out of AO range and lock down your opponents mech (and make it next to impossible to hit the APC now having a defense of 24 because they'd be firing out of base contact).

What are some of the big nasties these days? Chikako. Alpha. The Jade Hawks. With a 12 attack with IT for 4 damage ... the above groups would seriously cripple any of those. Heck ... just 1 hit to Alpha when she's on prime will make her pretty much useless. One hit from each group on Chikako reduces him to a mere 2 damage. The Jade Hawks wouldn't look to pretty either. And this army still has another 150 points for support. More than enough for a light or medium mech or a ton of infantry for additional support. The Jade Hawks, being H mechs ... could sport Reactive which would reduce the damage down to 2-4 damage ... but I don't think anyone wants to be proded into using H mechs exclusively all the time.

Okay, so...Remind me how even 12 IT (and your tokugawas above only have 11 in your above example) is going to reliably hit 24 decoy again (you based the opposing mech, remember)? Also, remind me exactly what 4 clicks of damage does to anything *other* than Alpha in your list (not too much)?

I'll take complaints seriously when they encorporate realistic scenarios and numbers.

But even then, I'd like to point something out to you: you are now complaining that 300 points of very well chosen, top end, combined arms units might have a chance against a single 200-250 point mech, assuming they get 4 orders to the mech's one. I say: #### straight! That's the sort of game I want to play. One where pieces other than mechs have a place on the battlefield. One where better utilized resources (orders, in this case) might even give one side an advantage.

-Nick

WK is asuming that every HD player will use HD faction pride. That's the explanation for the mediocre attack values they are giving us. Our version should have a 9 attack and the better damage value (not only steady).

As I said many times before: HD or SS are supposed to be the damage specialists.

House Davion is one of the big houses and that's not represented in the units we have seen so far. They are not that good and most Swordsworn are better.

.

The republic, Kurita, and Davion versions will definatly see play from me.

I have discovered most players ignore medium combat vehicles until the mechs and artiller is taken care of. One guy even had the gall to turn his perseaders rear arc to my Zibler, with said Zibler in range, saying " it is not a threat to me right now.

He missed the AO and said Zibler got off a Rear Arc shot my next turn for 3 damageknocking it's defense down enough for my battered jadehawk to pull a no mercy on it. he ended up taking 12 clicks of damage in one turn.

There is a minor issue with homing beacon that people are forgetting: single target. One of the huge things with the old Schmidt was the multiple targets so it couple target lots of units and if it hit the big guy, great. If not, the little guy gets all the lovin. If you really want that 11 attack, you have to select one target and live with your hit or miss.

Dude, that is pretty much how I play now. a 200 point (give or take) mech with the other 250 points devoted to infantry combat vehicles, and Either Arty OR VTOLS. and I have come out either on top or they have earned their victory. if you use it right these tanks will have a purpose. I will wait and see what I can do with them myself.

GCmdrArcanix.

Just hang in there. We're sending Special Victims Unit to take your formal statement.

Ah, true stories that bring a tear to my eyes. It must have been a satisfying experience for you, I guess.

Yeah, but my point being that the 3 factions with IT TGR's have an equivalent drop that they can use. The DF Tokugawa isn't imbalanced when compared with those drops. I too, would have liked to have seen everyone get decent tanks. The 8 attack is lame, but don't take it out on the DF tank. It's the first really good unit DF has gotten since AoD came out. I think all tanks need to be made more useable than they have (though JF seems to have gotten some decent ones in AoD).

@topgun
I agree with noeticist. Chikako is hardly worse for wear after 4 clicks of damage and the Jade Hawks are still in pretty decent shape. You need to get extra orders to land both drops in the same round and you need to hit them both.

@noeticist
I agree with you. I think mechs have been made too dominant on the field. Part of what keeps this game from getting old is that more than one type of unit is useable. As it stands now, mechs with artillery support are the dominant pieces (and maybe a good VTOL as backup). Tanks and infantry generally aren't worth the points. I hope they balance the game out a bit more so it is a combined arms game again rather than a dumbed down version of CBT.

@R_Wolfhound
I sympathize with you. I don't like how WK has maimed factions for getting a faction pride. The same thing happened to SH (and DF and I'm sure other factions). Why is it that SH has the worst TGR? Well, because they don't have their factions normal equipment of a targetting computer. Sure, they have a FP targetting, but that doesn't make up for taking IT off all of the units since FP can get cancelled far too easily and can only be used once per turn in 450 point battles. I was irked that SH got so ripped off in AoD for this reason. I'm actually glad to see that Davion got the IT FP and Steiner has the Damage FP. That means that the Steiner units will get their IT back. I feel bad for Davion, but I'd much rather see it happen to "the other guy" than Steiner.

Agreed. And also agree that the Jade Hawks aren't too shabby after 4 clicks either. But I wasn't stating 1 TD was I? The example was TWO groups. Until the BR Sprint and BR L.E. Combat Engineers are retired there is plenty of cheap command to be had. It isn't terribly hard to get that 4th order. And unless Chikako is camped out in hindering his defense value will be quite hittable. I agree with Noet that yes 24 with decoy will be hard to hit. My point was ... how long is it going to take before you are bored of playing it?

Considering the focus of this game ... I think anyone who states the above type of statement needs to re-evaluate why they play the game. :)

It's rather funny to claim that 'Mechs have become too dominant in the game. Hilarious, even. As long as the people who win the world championship in this game do so without using a single 'Mech in their optimalized armies, I'd say the opposite is the case. I for one am glad that 'Mechs have become more playable. Mind you, I've got nothing against tanks, they're good support units for 'Mechs.