bshugg-Would your army look something like this-

formation 1-
***amotep gunner
***amotep gunner
*elite surok apprentice

Formation 2-(break apart most of the time)
Scarabet
*technomancer
*technomancer

Loners-
***warhatchet krugg (I have no mochoch....yet)
*shade
***nightmare reaper
*centaur medic

B/C I just played that above build vs-
Formation 1-
*troll gunner
**troll artillerist
**mending priestess

Formation 2-
*troll gunner
**troll artillerist
**mending priestess

Loners-
***centaur LT
***centaur LT
***amazon mancatcher
*shade
**goblin volenteer

One thing that I will note, is that order of operations is vastly important. There were times that I realized that doing my chosen actions in a different order would have a dramatic effect upon the game.

Your close yet a ways off.

Remember I have anunub to work with. He makes a big difference in the army replacing an enhancer and a ML fig and counting as an attacker with his 12" MB.

Your version would work pretty well, but has a lot of points tied up in support and things that dont help the main focus. Against another ranged army you only have 3 long range attackers, and with out plenty of range, you might as well start adding skeletons, and KI because your not gonna do enough damage against a melee army to matter on the way in, and dont have enough to stand off against another ranged army from a distance.


The charger is great for hitting things thrown at you, but the army already has very little problem dealing with that.

The medic is good but inferior to the shamen*** when your using a lot of F/L.

I also have a bit more harrassment and a formation of gunners.

Looking closer at what your match up was, you should have tore the Troll Art army apart.

Mending priestess are worthless in the match up, and the 2 centaurs can do little more than run around and block shots or make suicide charges.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why people feel the trolls/mending priestess formation is a good combo. The only time it would work is against another Troll army.

ah yes, but the problem with anunub in an ML army is where are you going to put him? It is tough to double ML when anunub is off with gunners to enhance (if he does indeed do that).

As for the skeletons, that is my original and usual build. I was just taking an opprotunity to give the gunners and centuar (just got the centaur along with a few other choice figs today) a whirl.

My take on the reaper is that he is quite a multi functional tool box.

Harasser to mounted and support
Attacker
Body guard
Stops yo-yo

Just a good strong fig.

Against range, I have found it to function rather well in my first run with it. I have yet to put it through A.G. cheese and KI swarm.

That is very good surmise as to what happened. Though there were a few times when I wished I had my original 2 keggers in there instead of the gunners.

Well, since BoB is going on right now and I cant attend (check out the BoB thread under tournaments/conventions to see why, Im getting more and more ticked off over what happened as time goes by)

I guess I can post the ML army:

3 AG***
Anunub

Scarabet
scorpem Gunner***
Warkrugg*

shamen***
Mancatcher*
shade**

for anyone who has the figs, this army is able to beat anything and everything as long as the dice dont fail you and you dont screw up too bad. The big suprise is only 1 ML figure, but since the army is more range oriented than a normal ML army it is all that is needed. Sure I would like another techno in there, but not at the expense of anything else. The ram is always helpful, but is mainly there for the threat of ML/ram, and to deal with limited invis. figs which all have 10" or less range. Anyone having to face it can't sit back and turtle, because of the incredible range of the bounders, and has a nightmare of a time attacking it because of all the tricks it can pull off, and angles of fire it can set up.

It has no weak skeletons or shade to be picked off, forcing anyone who plays against to really have to commit to a fight to kill something.

Sorry to hear about the agonizing way things turned out for ya. That dude should have felt obligated to let you borrow his car after doing that to you. On the bright side, won't you still be one of the defending champs of the event?

Anyway, looking at your army, which looks very good, I had a suggestion. Have you considered using the blue golum mechanic instead of the red shaman? I mention it mainly because it's a newer fig that you may not have considered, but also because its higher attack of 9 would be better for healing the cav figs in your army and would save an action in moving your army. You've already got some enhancement with anunub, and I assume the shamen enhances the same formation. I don't know how you play the army though and if you even worry about healing the cav figs.

Which brings me to my second point - have you played this army against an ML/Ram heavy army that uses impalers instead of hacketkruggs (and has say two technos)? That would look to be the worst immediate matchup for you, with only one levitator, a weak healer, a rammer without toughness (not starting with it anyway) and two somewhat fragile cavalry units. With all the F/L you have, I'd consider replacing the red scorpem with a red sislith tracker, and maybe dropping the yellow mancatcher down to a yellow shade and bumping the yellow hatchetkrugg to a yellow impaler. Either one of those switches would at least give you an option for protecting anunub and your healer from ram without taking damage.

Nice army though. It'd be very good even without anunub.

SeethingImp: Havent heard from you in a while. Will you be at Gencon and Origins? I still have fond memories of our match up in the team tournament at GenCon. The game you guys would have won if the warlords would have been able to keep track of time with any efficiency. We used a timer to track round time, and each round the warlords would call "last action" anywheres from 5-9 minutes early.

The golem mechanic: The army moves full speed in 5 actions so doesnt really need the speed up. The mechanic only moves 6 inches which would slow me down a bit. His 9 healing would be easier to heal with but regular healing ends up costing you 2 actions to use rather than 1(most of the time). You have to move the figure or healer into base, and then heal. In the middle of combat (where healing is needed) I dont want to take 2/3 of a turn to attempt one healing roll.
The shamen is also used quite frequently in combination with anunub and the gunners to do formation shots of 3 F/L, and is often leved out in front for the 2 bounders to move forward and base for various reasons (getting striker past his bound clicks in one shot, or hitting a group of gunners for 4)

Dealing with double leved rammers: Its not a fun match up, but often not that hard to beat. The key to beating them is knowing how to engage them and who to protect, and the limitations of their army. You keep your shamen surrounded to prevent basing (not that hard to do) as he can be very important.

I will go into more detail later (I got to run right now) but basically you:

1.
force them to attack <20" away.

2.
You force them to have to decide:
attack the scorpems, who are out in front, in the gaurding arc of the gunners <or>
lev past the scorpem to try to hit the the gunners and support behind, and allow the scorpem to bound in and F/L your support next turn.

3.
Keep them engaging at long range, where you have the advantage of having all your guys close by to fight and harrass and support with, while they have just the few attackers they leved over for the first few critical turns of engagement. Force them to have to push the impailers, then attempt to capture them with the MC or beat them up.

"SeethingImp: Havent heard from you in a while. "

I hate to sound elitist, but ever since the clans started up, the quality of the posts on the public boards been in a steep downward spiral. Thankfully you still post though...

Anyway, yes, I still remember our match at gencon. It was agonizing not to have a decisive conclusion, but I felt that way about most of the rounds in that tourny. As you mentioned, they simply didn't give enough time for 400 point battles with teammates. We only would have won for sure if they had called the match a minute later, letting my skeleton attack your wounded wraith. I think your army was in better shape overall than ours if I remember. I think my teammate for that game, Elricthebold, had lost his lich and most of his army. On a side note, can you believe he's at the top of the hall of heroes? Goes to show how much of a joke the hall of heroes is when a person who's always in the top 5 has half of their points coming from weekly tournaments where he/she is the only warlord and he/she plays in them for ranking.

Back to the army talk, I agree about the golum mechanic and magic healing of the shamen. But I'm not sure about some of the things you posted about dealing with impaler/ML. When you say force them to attack from 20" away, I'm going to assume you mean keep your scorpems in front of your anunub formation to keep the impaler/ML formation 20 inches away from it, while they are still in the support range of your amotep gunners. That's probably enough to deal with two techno armies, which is what I was initially talking about. Would three technos and 3 impalers scare you more? Uziekiele also has an army that might match up well agaisnt this that I've haven't seen anyone else post, but I'll leave it for him to disclose.

How about the high defense baddies like the dwarven stomper and pyre spirit? The pyre spirit getting lev'd/moved into your amotep formation from 20-30 inches out would be nasty. This seems to be the most likely "downfall" of this army in a tournament... missing an 18 or 19 defense on a big unique. I imagine the reason you have 3 amoteps in your army for ranged attack formations, but a decent opponent would see it coming and attempt to sacrifice something to prevent it.

I wish I could say we get to have a rematch opportunity at gencon this year, but I won't be able to go this year. Any chance you making the roadie to dragoncon in atlanta?

I am trying to avoid the whole clan elitest stuff, which is why I havent joined a clan despite many offers. It does suck pretty bad for a lot of the newer players that the clanners have all decided to keep their "tech" talk hidden on their own discussion boards. It doesnt bother me too much, as I will match myself against a clan anyday, but there is much less good strategy swirling around the general threads. It makes it harder for the newer players to break into the tournament scene.

vrs the warkrugg/ML:
its tough to explain but I will try:

once the rammers start flying there is very little I can do. I just weather the storm, taking my clicks, and trying to get in hits where I can. when any of my guys get 3 clicks of damage done to them, I lev them in front of the shamen and heal them back up, and plug the hole with a shade. The shamen base is covered so he never loses his healing. The problem for the ram army is that I have 8 figs that can attack or capture them, and they need to use a lot of actions to advance. I keep pressure on them to never let them get a chance to hit for three on a fig with out risking a hit from the rear arc.

basically the first turn they can lev 20-30 inches and double ram. I threaten the ram with something. Next turn they usually break the ram and ram again, and I threaten it again. next turn another ram comes over and double rams. I threaten the first one or shoot it, and lev heal something. Eventually I start getting hits on the rams, taking away their ram ability, or they push a ram and I move in for a capture with a gunner or MC.

As long as I can keep pressure on the rams, its diminishing returns for their army. They use 3 actions to come over to do 2 or 4 damage. but its just bruising damage(1 click at a time) and I never let them stay to get the big 3 pnt hits with out getting hit back or captured. They keep taking actions to bruise my guys while I take actions to hit them for 3 or capture them, and can use 1 action to heal up a guy for 3 or more. I end up doing more damage for less actions, and since I have more points put into offense than they do (3 technos is a lot of points for support) I should be able to pull out the win.


(well Im sure that was more confusing then helping)

one more try (simple like):
they are using single actions to do 2 damage(ram 2 figs) I am using single actions to do 3(if I hit), and have more offense in my army then them. Also I am close to a protected healer(unrammable) to heal up when I get hurt bad. I can push for the most part they can't(I dont mind if you use a 40 pt figure to capture a 24 pt one, but my MC would love to swoop in and capture a pushed 40 pt+ rammer). Does that clear it up?

vrs Pyre spirit: This guy is a monster, but here it boils down to the fact that I will willingly sacrafice a few guys to take him out, and make up for it by healing later and the point advantage.

when he comes over, first I will ml/ram him dealing 2 clicks. Sure my rammer takes 2 as well, but its worth it to lower that 19 defense. Then I will try to hit it with what ever he based with(gunners), or break the mounted(if he based one instead) dealing another click. Next turn I would ml ram him agian(pushing anunub) just to make sure he has 3 damage to him, and then he is much easier to take out. He will have damaged some guys, but not many, and If I can keep the opponent at bay for a few turns(harrassers, scorpem threats) than I am pretty safe to heal up the worst of the damage, I may have to make a sacrafice of a guy or two, but will get the point advantage from the pyre spirit.

to seeing you at B.o.B it was a shame you got screwed like you did. The army you posted looks a lot like what i had told Wkura it would look like ( he thought 2 rammers, I guessed 2 scorpems. I am little surprised by the *** shamen but it makes sense). Now my question is how would you have attacked his "tank" as I like to call it? It is in the other forum for army review. I have an idea of how you might do it but I would like to hear your ideas.

I will lay out the pieces on the board tommorow to get a good feel for it. Right now I can only guesstimate which isnt very useful.

I have a feeling that it would be a tough match up for both of us. its much harder than the standard swarm/charge would be for me, and my army has a lot of offense and has no trouble hitting the high defenses if played correctly, and the ability to spread out damage, really making the EGM much less useful tjan in other match ups.

Ok I have had time to get in 2 practice games(mainly just manuvering to get a feel of the match up) against Wkura's "Tank" army, and 2 games of theoretical testing. (read above what theoretical testing is)

Heres some idea about the match up:

Its very hard for the Tank to get any kind of terrain advantage with his army unless he plays very defensively.

The possibility for action can happen very early (2 minutes into the game) but most likely turns into the Tank trying to bait out some action, while the ML army trys to manuver around terrain to find a good place to pick a fight. If both players are smart than the ML army doesnt get baited, and the Tank gets into a position where it either retreats around terrain, or advances.

ML army gets 1 free shot with scarabet, and possibly scorpem. (scarabet usually aims to F/L the EGM if in formation trying for an 8 or else hits some Chargers for 1 each, with the scorpem hopefully doing the same on the chargers, or else waiting)

The Tank cant risk using the EGM up close with out losing the the defend to ML/ram. It has to keep it back to snipe with bounding, or get in healing shots.

The scorpems after getting one early attack, have to flee or else risk capture. They can circle back around, but for the most part must wait until the chargers are committed.

The shade and mancatcher, keep the chargers from charging for a a few critical turns.


General feel for the match up:
The ML army has an advantage on the board, but has a difficult time utalizing that advantage. Similar to the GA armies, the Tank can retreat anything wounded very easily to save points. If it gets a capture it can use it as a moving shield as the army retreats to keep the ML army from getting hits.

The ML army has to either get lucky to crack the EGM or else wait until under heavy attack from the chargers, and try to take out the EGM with the rammer. While being attacked it has to try to keep the chargers from doing to much damage, while dealing with the EGM, not an easy task. ML and healer helps, as well as offering up a sacrafice gunner or even scorpem. by the time the EGM is taken care of (lost healing/defend) then the Tank folds easily as long as they havent inflicted heavy (unhealable losses)

The biggest problem for for the ML army is time. Its very hard to win in a 50 minute round, if the Tank player begins to play defensively after making a capture or kill. There is an order of actions that must be taken, which the opponent can make more time consuming. Not doing things in order means a loss for the ML army.

I predict that in a first match up the tank player will win on a slight point advantage as time ran out. After playing a few more matchs the ML army regains the advantage, as they get better understanding of how to play the match out. Of course, like any other match up, dice can screw everything up for you.

bshugg

Bshugg:

After playing a few more matchs the ML army regains the advantage, as they get better understanding of how to play the match out. Of course, like any other match up, dice can screw everything up for you.

Hrmmmm, interesting but you are assuming two things with that statement(which may or may not be true...Im not making any suggestions either way)

1) That the Tank player won't learn anything new thus allowing the ML person to be the only one who gets any better

2) That the ML player is a better strategist then the Tank player. Just as the ML player would learn form their mistakes, so would the Tank player.

I have played a lot of people who I feel are just as good a strategist/player as I am, but I have yet to play anyone who I felt had a real advantage over me in the startegy department. As we all know, an inferior army(which it would be really hard to argue that the tank is), can stomp a superior army depneding on the skill of the player(and of course, the DICE!).

P.S. A lot of the things that you said you would have to do(hit luck rolls, keep chargers from hurting anything, etc.) are a whole lot easierr said then done.

Take it easy!

I am not real sure why you believe the tank can not get terrian advantage. He is not going to turttle but he will play in the manner that he needs to win.

No easy targets is another good thing about the tank. Most pieces have deep dials that allow them to stick around. Scorpems and gunners do not have such dials. A healer, in this case a shamen, can help out but if he cripples enough figs someone is going to be spening alot of actions healing. The healer better hit all its rolls also.

Wkura has become extremely good at arranging his chargers. He has become very good at using chargers together. Mancathers and shades can be dealt with in a number of ways. The fell is the first thing that comes to mind.

I have said it before and I will say it again that the army is not unbeatable. The problem with playing against the army is you are going to get a few shots and you better make them. If you miss then it is going to get real ugly real fast. Once the main force gets in on the opponent it is going to be tough. This army can put you in a hole that is going to be very tought to get out of. With such deep dials, healer, defend, and good damage production it is a tough army.

One ting you hit right on the head is the fact in a 50 min match it is going very hard to get enough points to win.