True, you have a bunch of d4, with the 25% chance of doing damage, but you just wasted most of your dice on a single attack, and are now wide open for multiple attacks from your opponent.

I will say it again:

9 clicks of damage (the most you can theoretically roll with Kellan Colt, and that's assuming she doesn't have some of Lothan's magical mojo equipped), if it hits the right body part, will kill every fig I have seen for the game so far. And if you replace one of Kellan's blue d4's with a green d4 or two? You'll get to aim for the weakest part.. and the game will end with 1 (or really, 6) dice rolls. Who cares if you left yourself wide open?

Oh, and you can't use white dice on attacks. So you'll still have those left over to dodge/move.

Athenor

Double aces are not affected by bad karma but they do not add to the attack roll. Aces do not give 1 extra damage in general so that part of your question was wrong. However, because of the current rules you might not be able to add the red aces at all. Since Colt has a red +1 damage and the rules say if you have the bonus no other bonuses can be added. I would hope that you can add aces but since the rules are written that way any rule lawyer would not let you add the ace points.

This is how much damage you would do if you can add the ace damage:
2 dice = 2 damage
2 aces = 2 damage
total 4 damage

Sigh, here we go again. Kellen Colt as she comes can only do 8 damage in a single shot (which, unfortunately is still enough to seriously damage any character that has been released for the game thus far). Fortunately the defender gets to chose the location hit by her, so they will survive the hit, but not be happy about it. We have gone through this. If Kellen rolls Aces on all of her red dice then the red dice do not receive Kellen's inherent +1 red damage. That bonus is only taken into account when counting the number of dice still left after the removal of shields, since aces have already been removed there are no red dice able to benefit from Kellen's bonus. So yes, the maximum damage she can do at the moment is only 8. You can assume that any mage character will be able to do the same though, anyone with red dice has the chance of doing the extra damage. On the flip side of the coin, many other figures will be able to do a max damage of 6 (not 8 but still enough to cripple any other character out there). It still comes down to being able to position your character well enough to get that big all or nothing hit, then rolling good enough that you either get all aces or you actually hit the other guy.

And you are advocating that you -want- the game to play this way, Swan?

*sighs* If it ends up this way, fine. I still take the combat sequence as a whole, however. This way, the aces only hit if the attack hits, but on the converse, a red ace will do 3 clicks of damage.

I don't know if this is the right way it is to be taken.. But it seems to me that aces are normal dice in every way, that count as a 0 towards the attack and deal an extra effect. This way, they are just like any other dice -- they deal 1 click of damage, they can be used to apply character bonuses -- but the 0 to attack is a huge liability. It just makes the rules more coherant, than having the aces be these god-powerful, immune dice.

BTW: 8 clicks of damage will kill Kellan on the weapon slot from healthy, kill Kellan on the head slot from healthy, and drop Kellan's defense to a 2 from healthy, depending on where the defender places it. 9 clicks of damage to the body will result in a 0 defense and 1 bullet hole, 11 clicks of damage will kill her.

Now, am I saying that this will not happen with the way I wish to see the rules abitrated? No, it still could. However, it would be amazingly diffucult.. just as it is in Shadowrun, a bullet can kill in one hit. But the only way for an attack 5 to beat Kellan's defense would be for the defender to roll no dodge dice, or roll black/red dice for dodge and roll aces.

Athenor

Look, life is tough. As you pointed out even in Shadowrun a single shot can kill a character. That's the same thing we are looking at here, 1 single shot has the chance of killing someone, is it likely - no, can Kellen do it to Kellen, no (unless the opposing players chooses to die). Being shot should hurt and incapacitate a player. Playing Duels is not for a 1 on 1 event. That leads to a pretty quick and boring game with 1 good shot deciding the fate of the battle. Try it with team vs team. Then even if Kellen runs out and gives her best all or nothing shot, there she is standing out in the open with no ability to defens herself from the rest of the opposing team. I have played team on team a couple of times and no single roll has decided a battle. Team work has decided the battle. The group that manuevers their characters so that they cover each other, or present enough of a threat that the other team can not risk an all or nothing shot is the team that walks away victirious. Bloody and beat up, but victorious. I just happen to be lucky enough that I have 6 figures to play with, 2 Kellens and one of each of the other 4 promo's they released. THe game isn't perfect and hopefully they will clean up a few quationable areas, but it does run well. Even with the Ace situation, playing them that and Ace always hits, the game works well and it gives characters like Kyushi a chance to hit once in a while. There is nothing more frsutrating then shooting that sniper rifle at a character that keeps 3 white dice to defend with, the ace alloaws her to get in a good shot now and then even if it is only for 1 point.

So, am I advocating that I want he game to run this way? No, but I am not against it either. How many games have you played, using both of the methods being discussed here? How did they turn out? Is one way truly that much more effective then the other?

Swan, I believe that you are completely incorrect about aces always doing damage whether the attack hits or misses.

I believe that it's pure common sense that the attack needs to hit the target for ANY of the dice to do their damage.

If the game worked the way you're advocating, such a rule would immediately ruin it. Everyone would be rolling 6 d4s for their attacks, with a 25% chance on each die of an ace. Who'd want to play a game where a rolled ace dealt damage regardless of the defenders dodge roll, regardless of whether the attack hit or missed? Seriously, you're wrong here. Suck it up and deal.

If I am reading this right, and I might not be, you put all the damg in one spot. Now I don't have my pre-rule book in front of me, but I was under the impression that the defender could spread out the damg on all his dial. Now with that said, the defender still would be hating life after spreading 8 points around everything.

On a second note, I too believe that since the rule book says the aces count as +0 to attack, that if the grand total does not add up to beat the defender's defense number, the aces don't count.

But as we are discoving on this thread, different people interpret what they read differently.
:rolleyes:

Right aces dont count there are zero "you put aside for later" I still think they hit

I'd just like to point out that the attack must be SUCCESSFUL in order for you to do any damage to an opponent.

Rolling all Aces won't do you any good if you don't hit the target.

PK,

Well we are happy to know what you believe, unfortunately your belive is inconsequential to this discussion. Not sure is you have bothered to, or are just unable to read the whole thread here, but you seem to be missing the point of the entire conversation. Athenor has read the rule book and has come to a conclusion how attacks go based on the 'logic' of the situation. Basically his belief is that if the attack does not hit then no damage from any source is taken. My argument falls from the written word of the rules. Quick recap, there are 13 defined steps in the attack. In no steop do they had a 'if condition fails then end process'. What we do have is:

Step 8 - Compare Results. This steps tells us if the attack is succesfull or not
Step 9 - Check for shields. This step states 'If the attack was succesful then .....'
Step 11 - Calculate Damage. This step also states 'A succesful attack .....'
Step 12 - Determine ace effects. Unlike the other two this one states 'Every ace rolled on an attack ....' Not every ace rolled on a succesful attack.

This sure makes it look like Aces are special and should be treated that way. And there is even support from other WizKids games to support this type of thinking. Look at their Dungeons game under venom, an attack whether succesful or not still does one click of damge if the attacker has venom.

The things here both Athenor and I agree on are that the rules could be read and interpreted two different ways. He is playing what the intent should be, I took what the written word states. It is also agreed by both of us that we hope the final rules will be a bit more clear when they are released. There are gaps in the pre-release rules, but they are still better then the first set they released and also cleaner then the beta rule set WizKids have. This game will be a lot of fun, but it would be nice to know that when I play it at my venue, then go and play it again at Athenor's that I will be playing the same game in both places.

And there while I was posting came Kelly's response. Nice that WizKids has spoken up.

Sorry to be late.

I blame the Realms people for having too many forums. ^_^

Appreciate you stopping in here to clear this up though Kelly. Will the final rule book be a little clearer then the ones we have seen thus far?

I don't understand what now, Swan?

Heh heh heh.