cdaniel:

The difference is: there are triggered effects that take pace at the beginning of the combat phase, regardless of whose attack step it is. This shows that there is a window at the beginning of the phase before the step itself starts.

There's also the fact that rulebook states the initiative player has priority at the start of each phase and each step.

If there's one thing the rules are not, it's redundant. It's quite clear that the game is rife with opportunies for interaction between opponents.

I'm with Kergillian.

Is like: you have priority and have Onslaught and Dark Ph

Dark PH effect will trigger before your attack step (start of combat phase) THEN (if there are no other effects that trigger on the start of that phase) Onslaught will trigger at the start of your attack step.

If you have NOT priority then is like this:

Dark Ph will trigger (no matter who have priority I guess if there are no other effects that trigger at the start of this phase) THEN your opponent's attack step begin and when he pass his attack step is when YOUR attack step begin and so Onslaught's effect take place (if he is not stunned on your opponent's attack step)

I'm using the same example used in this thread.
This is the way I see it goes guys. Hope will help a little.

:classic:

What's important to understand here is that no triggered effect is necessary. Players may generate effects at the start of each phase and each step.

The above example was to make a difference between the Start of the Combat Phase and the Start of your Attack Step since both card's refer to different momento.

I'm clear on that Zaxx ;)

Dear VsRealms.com people:

Stopping by to post under Chad's account for a minute, because he let me know about the interpretation problems he was coming up against for the Marvel rulebook, and I've got a copy of it handy on my computer. And looking in that rulebook, it's fairly simple to see that he's not particularly mistaken in his assertions that nobody gets to do anything in Combat phase before the first attack step starts.

If you'll look at the turn sequence pages - 15-21 - you'll notice that Draw phase and Recovery phase have no steps, and Build phase and Combat phase have steps. Now look at page 16: there is not a section here on Combat phase with a separate section on Attack step. Rather, there is a section here on Combat phase with a _sub_section on Attack step, just like on page 15 there is a section on Build phase with three subsections on the three steps in Build phase.

Page 24 tells you how priority works: when a phase starts, the player with initiative gets priority. When a step starts, the player whose step it is gets priority. The former is needed because there are two phases that have no steps in them; the latter is for phases with steps. Notice that Build phase gives the initiative player the first resource step, and Combat phase gives the initiative player the first attack step; this means that the two rules of priority agree on who gets priority that step - the player with initiative. There is no need for someone to get priority before the first resource step starts, or before the first attack step starts; the rulebook doesn't say there's any space there. THIS IS NOT MAGIC THE GATHERING; the rulebook does NOT have a "beginning of combat" step sitting before the first attacker is declared for everyone to do stuff in.

Note that page 24 _also_ tells you that declaring attackers isn't the only thing you can do in your attack step - you can generate some other effect first, and everyone gets the chance to respond to that IF YOU DO. But: you have priority, in your attack step... so you get to do the FIRST thing then. You can start off your attack step by declaring an attacker before anyone else gets to do anything in that step. If you're the initiative player, your attack step is the first one in Combat phase, and nobody gets to do anything that step before you declare your first attacker, if that's what you want to do first. And there ISN'T ANY SPACE IN COMBAT PHASE before that first attack step can start; the start of Combat phase _is_ the start of the first attack step. The rulebook doesn't say anything about stuff happening, or a space for it to happen in, before that first attack step starts, just like it doesn't say anything about people being able to do stuff "after Build phase starts but before the first Resource step starts" or "after the last Formation step ends but before Build phase can end". You don't get any "free space" in a turn, or in between turns either; you're
either in a step, or in Draw phase or Recovery phase which don't have steps.

I notice that some people are taking the existence of cards that trigger 'at the beginning of combat phase' to mean that that is somehow different from an attack step. News for you: that's the same as "at the beginning of initiative player's attack step"; stuff that triggers at one of those times gets piled on the chain with stuff that triggers at the other time, just like you'd do if there were two effects both triggering "at the beginning of combat phase".

David DeLaney

*edit* changed recover to resource

And whenever a player has priority, he must yield it to the opposing player who must yield it back. When both yield on an empty chain, the phase or step proceeds.

It's right there in the rulebook. I don't see how you can say it only applies to certain phases when that idea is not in the rulebook.

The rules even go so far as to say "If the chain is not
occuring within a step, the player with initiative has priority." If a chain is not occuring within a step, it must be occuring at the start of a phase. Nowhere is stated that start-of-phase effects cannot be manually generated.


How do you figure? This is the last opportunity to play anything this turn. You can use activated powers, flip over plot twists and locations, etc.


Chad is free to open his attack step with an attack declaration. The only bone of contention here is whether he gets to jump straight to the attack step as soon as his opponent is done with the formation.

I'm having a hard time believing the answer is "yes" even with someone of your prestigious standing saying otherwise. Surely you can see where there's room for doubt.

Yes, that is correct. The point disagreement is I say there is no point in which I would be required to pass priority between the Begging of the combat phase and when I declare an attacker.

He ment resource not recovery, that was a mental typo.

That is not exactly what I have been saying. I say as soon as the Combat Phase starts, if I have intiative, I can declare an attacker.

Once my opponant finishes his formation step, he would need to pass priority If he wanted to, he could play Plot twist or any other leagal payment power first. If I then Pass Priority back to him on an empty chain, the game moves on to the Combat phase. At which time I can declare an attacker, assuming I have initiative.

My whole point is there is not a space between when the combat phase starts and the attack step of the player with initiative. Just like there is no space inbetween the Build Phase and the start of the resource step of the player with initiative.

I think is where we keep falling down. An attack declaration is an effect. Since you have priority at the start of the attack step, this opening move is entirely legitimate.

The contention here is whether the "Combat Phase" is synonymous with the "Attack Step".

Call me whacky but I don't think UDE would go out of their way to call one thing by two different names.

Then you and I agree on that, but unless Nova has changed his mind, he still believes what I stated as far as I can tell.

It is not synonymous, the Combat Phase totally encompasses the attack steps, see my illustrations in an earlier post.

BTW, your whacky!!! /poke

:eek:

Why I otter....

<shakes fist at Chad>

I see mitchell lurking.... I hope the length of this thread doesn't scare him off.

In short:

In the Combat Phase both players must pass before the game proceeds to the player with initiative's Attack Step.

Then inside that Attack Step both players must pass again before an Attack Declaration can be made.

So, including 2, before a potential attack and an attacker exhausting there are actually three opportunities to play Plot Twists and Use Payment Powers.

In long:
I updated the Detailed Attack breakdown to include this information on a new thread.

Woo Hoo!

<doing the Snoopy Dance>


Huh?

Yes you heard him right, they have rewritten the combat phase. I just wish I knew why.