Isn't everyone involved in VS getting more out if than they put in? If they weren't, would they still be involved? To call 1 group of players "leeches" and not another seems to be drawing a somewhat arbitrary line. I really doubt if Joe Average came up w/ the latest and greatest deck that he'd run to VSRealms and post the decklist any faster than Joe Pro would. I guarantee after Atlanta that there will be plenty of discussion from all sorts of pros about what is good in Marvel Modern, but expecting that now is a bit silly. Sure it won't help you for the PC, but it sure will help you for the PCQ season. I think it's pretty easy to have high expectations out of a group that you're not a part of.

I disagree.

There is a well-documented economic phenomenon called "The Jordan Effect". This, of course, refers to Michael Jordan and how his actions affected the U.S. economy. Even though he was the highest paid professional athlete of the 1990's by far, he impacted sales and growth of the companies and groups that he was associated with by a far greater amount. If I recall correctly, in 1996, Jordan made just over $200 million altogether. But between endorsement deals with Nike, Hanes, and Gatorade, his association with the Chicago Bulls, and even the charities he supported, he actually created $40 billion in jobs and revenues. Given the return on that investment, I'd say that he earned every penny.

[Granted, my recollection of this is extremely hazy. If I have misstated anything, please feel free to correct me.]

To a lesser extent, this is what happens in the Vs. System with the top pros. The stronger players in the game put together decks that can find success in the current metagame and play them at premeire events. After such decks find success, other Vs. players emulate these decks in order to find the same success on their own. In such ways, the game of Vs. receives a boost as a whole as specific cards become the target of Vs. players around the globe. Events like the last $10K in Orlando can potentially double the sales of a set when several cards from that set are featured in the top decks (like the Avengers set with Niles Rowland's Squadron Supreme deck and Michael Jacob's Avengers Reservist deck). Heck, we have to give Dave Spears credit since he was one of the main players in the evolution of the Curve Sentinels deck. I can only imagine how many extra packs of Marvel Origins that deck sold, given the number of people trying to hunt down four copies of Bastion, Bolivar Trask, and Micro-Sentinels.

I do agree that it's a sad state of affairs when pros play our beloved game simply to make money, and not out of any personal enjoyment they get out of playing Vs. But that is their conscious choice to do so, and I do not begrudge them that opportunity. But the simple truth is that professional success at $10K's and Pro Circuits is one factor that helps keep our game strong. Without the deckbuilding innovation that finds new ways to play the game, we would all still be playing Teen Titans mirror matches. It's those players that get out there and find ways that fit the best cards into a deck that changes the way we play the game.

You may not see it as optimal or even ethical. But, ultimately, it is good for the game of Vs.

Besides, I am willing to bet that the percentage of Vs. pros who are in the game just for the money, and not for any entertainment, is a lot smaller than you think!

The correct answer is "Jimmy Carter".

Seriously, that is a perfect example. Who cares what the actual numbers are (don't you wish you could say that at work?) the Jordan effect is real. I don't think we will ever have anyone that good at this game... hell, we won't even produce a Kai Budde, but it is the same phenomenon.

Jimmy Carter!!! LOL!!!

Stu, you are a cruel bastard, and I love you for it!

(Real Barnes, sir, I love you too much to talk about it in public. Check your PM.)

.....all i can say spooky is excellent post....

The Jordan effect is real, but also so are the 'Jordan rules', as teh book has stated.

If anyone who has watched basketball knows exactly what a personal foul is, no other player I know can go for a steal at halfcourt, get burned on said steal, and pull that guys shorts down AT HALFCOURT and not get called for the foul like Michale Jordan could. Only Jordan could get away with some of the things he did, and if you blew too hard on him, you caught a foul.

Same thing can be said here. At PC NY, a Money player was playing a local in round 5 or 6, and it was Curve VS New school. The PRO Took forever to summon one mark two and set up a formation. the local took less time to boost Dr. Light, figure out effects on the chain, and do a formation, and guess who got the warning for the time? Exactly. These are few of the quirks I don'tlike about the 'Jordan rules'

Hmmm... what is interesting to me is how thin the line is between Joes and Pros in this game. We've seen some of the pros sweep a tournament then fail miserably at another one. There is a lot of luck that still affects every matchup. On any given day, you can bet a "pro". Even I've done it before. None of you guys get too comfortable.... :)

And you can't just be a netdecker to be good at Vs. Your draft and sealed skills must be sharp. You can't win the big check at a PC by being an expert with a 60 card net deck that everyone knows how to play.

Synthezoid
Team Random Pile of Cards

Well said. That is the reason we will never produce a Kai Budde.

I think it is somewhat ironic that it is the self-proclaimd grass root "Joes" that tend to segregate themselves from the pros. Kind of how like goths go all we're not like them, but they end up just being like everyone else. I am not trying to barn or kiss up or whatever I just feel that at some level no matter how good you are at anything, you eventually return to the basics, because the basics are always the most important. This is how I envision most of these "pro" players.

In any case, the fact that we are all gamers should prove to be more of a bond then... I don't know, whatever false subdivisions you can create in the context of the game.

In addition, cfbrunner's comment... I totally understand how you feel because I feel the same way too. Maybe this is because I am dissapointed at my own lackluster skills, but I really don't like it when some people take this game too seriously and act dickful, whether it is when they can't take losing or arrogance when they're winning. Granted, I can't be certain how much I do this myself so... I guess he who is without sin?

Maybe. Then again, look at Hans Hoh - he kind of disproves that theory.

it depends on how you look at it.

If you looked at Hoh as Jordan, then yes it would.

However, I never thought of Hoh as Jordan, more like Stojakovic.

Every star gets the calls their way, when playing against a non-star. it's when they play against the rival stars that not every call shifts their way.

So under scrutiny of the top 8, when your moves are personally watched by a table judge, you won't get every call. I honestly believe he would have never been DQ'ed in a normal PC swiss round at the regular tables.

This is why Peter Sundholm is the best! Not only will you not meet a nicer "pro," but you won't meet a nicer person.

I still firmly believe all of the hate towards pro players is a result of jealousy. As kids, everyone wants to be popular. EVERYONE. The mature kids are the ones who don't openly announce it or go to extreme measures to become popular, but deep down in everyone's heart is the desire to be loved and in a sense worshipped by your peers for your excellence. As time passes and we grow older, if we don't become popular we start to hate and resent the popular kids. Why? We can make up excuses like "oh they're just total fake wannabes" or "they're just all around jerks; why would I want to be one of them?" but in reality we're just jealous of the fact that they get attention and we don't.

I haven't had very much exposure to the pros (none of them live in my area) so I can't say whether most of them are nice or jerks or whatever. Nor can I really say if they fuel the game's economy or encourage people to play. All I know is we all want to be one, and when our dreams are silently but firmly shattered we turn to an outer sense of apathy, an inner sense of defeat, and an overall sense of jealousy. Jealousy becomes hate, hate manifests itself wherever it can; usually internet forums like these.

I don't blame people. I hate the fact that I'm just a scrub and probably won't accomplish anything in my 'career' but I continue to go to as many events as I can and post on this forum and play online whenever I get the chance. Why? Because despite the flaws of the game as well as its social structure it's still a pretty fun way to pass time and meet people.

That is the best thing I have ever read on a message board. Anywhere. Ever.

Can I buy you a beer in Atlanta? Indy?