Actually... you were pointing out that I am lying and you think I shouldn't be expressing my opinion...
Do you actually know I'm the ONLY person to say that so far? I just don't post out of the blue (like some people)... I do tend to have some data/history/support to back up my opinions.

But I guess stu agrees with you and felt it was such a good burn he had to highlight, quote and rep you for:
If stu is repping you... well... something is wrong.
That's why I said "stealth" flame. You basically said the same thing but in a more polite manner... pretty much this:

"Your posts are innacurate so you shouldn't even be posting them."
Oh... I guess you did it again.

Look... I don't mind you disagreeing with me... that's what this forum is for. But responding with "beating a dead horse" and "A rose by any other name..." tends to set a bad tone for the content of your post. If you are saying that this discussion is on the same level as a thread about punk rock which is less related to VS (in my opinion), how else are your posts supposed to be framed?

You have some very valid points in your post but by throwing in the little jabs here and there will tend to move this thread elsewhere (which it already has). Which is why I mentioned refraining from such tactics. However, feel free to continue on however you choose because maybe I'm just over reacting to your criticsim... just wanted to let you know what my opinion of your responses were.

I understand that you are tired of these threads and feel that it's just a rehash of my previous ones. The whole underlying subtext here is that people are afraid of change. I hated the move to 1-game format... and I still think it had some bad effects on the tournament experience. But I realize that with the current engine, 2 of 3 is near impossible and so I accepted it (kind of). The majority loves the current engine... but it is of my opinion that had VS started with the WoW engine, most people would have accepted it also, despite all the protests. Because no matter how good the engine is... if no one plays it... it's a terrible one.

And as much as I understand what Tim and Tommy are saying... I don't agree that the WoW engine doesn't translate flavor wise because the effects/flavor on the cards can adapt to it. For example, instead of "nature damage" it would be "energy damage" or "physical damage". The IP of comic book heroes is very flexible, VS probably does the best job in capturing the flavor but you can take almost any engine and adapt it to superheroes... even the MtG, DragonballZ, [insert card game here] engine.

Although many of us want a game engine to be complex and strategic, that hinders it from becoming a mass market success.

erick likes WoW, got it

erick likes VS but wants it to be another card game, seemingly ANY other card game, got it

why does erick play VS?

Do you see the connection:

http://www.pennyhead.com/images/snoop.jpg

Flavor?

Let me ask you: if VS was about elves and dragons, would you still play it because you like the engine?

If not, then you play for the flavor. If yes, why the anger towards others?

I think the game has it successes because it is how it is. Why change it? I know it is a what-if-thread but why change something that worked very well?
Tough I believe WoW has the base-mechanics from VS....

Actually I think you know you are exaggerating. If I didn't want you posting I would tell you to 'shut up' like Stu does and not even attempt to quote you. I took your individual quotes and let you know a difference in my opinion. You have yet to even define what the hell a successful game is! If two high selling sets and a big tournament turnout is a big success, then VS did that. When VS first did PCQ's we had one with comparable numbers to your WOW pre-release in the first year! Mission accomplished!

You are right you use anecdotal evidence to make points and I point out how that data can be inaccurate by giving you a different cross-section of info that is accurate in my part of the world. Well if you want to share any papers you have prepared or studies you have on hand feel free to post them. I don't see a lot of support for you on this thread, and you asked us all to let you know what we thought. If you have that much insight into the issue I would expect much clearer posts with stats and graphs. By the way I had some friends tell me they would play VS. if it had it's own MMORPG that sold 1,000,000 copies. Maybe we should push UDE to do that.

I don't care, if he liked my idea then great, if he don't, I don't who cares?
Apperently only you.

Nope there was no flame or stealth involved. Just straight up telling you my opinion. I really am sorry you feel this way.


Dude you started busting on the other threads as being not relevent, is that not a flame by your definition? Yea I group this in with those threads cause as much as you wish it did, because you post a topic it's not, more relevent to VS or the boards. You say you don't care if I disagree with you, but you sure as hell don't want me arguing with you. By pointing out that 'Well I know people too and they are not like the people you know", makes it tough for the whole, 'I talked to my friends and this is what they say' arguments to hold up. Also if you didn't care about people disagreeing with you, you wouldn't have had to ##### about Stu all the damn time. Put him on ignore already. He's been here since the dawn of time why do you even read him?

It's the internet get a helmet. I don't think I said anything that wasn't poking fun of the initial language you used in your post. Don't say you are 'sure' of something, or "I know many of the VS players have moved to WoW" and I don't seem to hear too many complaints from them" if you don't want people letting you know that YOU don't in fact know everybody. I was letting you know that I in fact also know people, and they don't seem to be anything like the people you know! Congrats your initial point may not be as solid as you think. You present data defining the basis of your thought, someone else presents data that contridicts that, it's time to rethink the basis of your argument.
I don't care if you post one of these replacing VS with every game ever made, I suggest doing WhatIf VS were Netrunner next because I would probably agree with that one.
I could not agree with the theory that something has to be THE MOST POPULAR to be successful or fulfilling. The game can survive selling third, and that is no reflection to the quality of the game.
But would that engine sell more? You have no idea, and neither do I. I think I am beginning to see your point here though. You believe that unless Vs sells to your expectations it's a failure. Personally they could close down support tomorrow and I would still play the game and try and fill out my sets, because it's a great game. They could take the Superheroes off and make generic fantasy themes like magic and I would still probably buy it if the engine was the same and the sets were decent.
Why would I accept an inferior product? I don't really want to dumb down my exp, so mouth-breathers have a chance to beat me in a coinflip or rock, paper, scissors match. Of course I don't have problems playing Vs. and losing, I have had my fair share of $250 cards and some 1-6's and after each I went home and picked up my cards and looked to see what I could do better and strangely enough I am still pleased with the game.


Just to counter your point how many people think WOW would have sold just as well if they would have put it in the VS engine. I know a lot of WOW players who say they would still play. So obviously the way to actually save VS is to make it to where WOW is like VS then when a wow player joins they by default join VS.

BLOCK OF TXT FTW!!!

Yes!


Would I have started playing it in the first place to find out how good it was? Probably not.

There are a lot of mechanics in WoW that don't make sense for superheroes, which erick is not getting.

For instance, in order for your hero to attack on his own, you have to equip him with a weapon.

So you're telling me in order to attack with Batman I have to equip him with a Batarang first? This makes no sense. Batman can beat the crap out of you without a Batarang. Most people would be upset with a game where most of the turns your favorite superhero sits and does nothing.

This makes total sense in context of the WoW game, though, because the game mechanically reflects its flavor.

For me it´s not really clear while here on VSrealms there is allways WoW. So it´s no surprise for me that most people here don´t like it at all. Let Wow be WoW and VS be VS.

Not wanting me to post and telling me not to post are different. You keep saying "why do I even ask the question"... that's the point... because although I know what my answer is... I want to know what other people's views are, even yours. But you're not disagreeing with me... you are dismissing me... and maybe it's because there is no tone on the Internet but I don't recall doing that to you.
Huh? Are you or are you not reading my posts?
Can you cite this PCQ? As far as I know, until the MegaPCQ, the biggest non-convention PCQ that was held in NorthAm was our Golden Age SoCal one at around 70 players. The numbers for our pre-release for WoW was 157.
Actually... flaming is insulting the individual... much like grendelboy's post. And I'm not saying I'm innocent... just pointing it out. And yes... I think punk rock is not relevant to VS General Discussion.
This is better actually. But you didn't really say this in your original post. And my opinion isn't based on just my own personal experience... I find it funny that you are only arguing with me while other posters on this thread have repeated similar sentiments.
My experience with Netrunner was limited and very bad... talk about too many numbers on a card.
VS is not third. Or fourth. And probably will not be top 5 if something isn't done. Jeff Donais alluded to that himself.

Fulfilling... yes... successful... no.
That's my point? My expectations are much higher than what I hope VS would sell to. My point is that we need to accept change if we want things to improve.
And that's why your opinion is the way it is. I want VS to be an evergreen game, I want it to continue on. And that's why we have different stances and views.
I agree. But like I said... the reality is (and this is stated by UDE... not me) that things need to change for the game to continue on. Even if they don't change the engine, things may not be what we're used to... I just hope that people can accept that.
It might sell well at first. But it would atrophy just like VS has because complex strategy is not what a majority of people want... at least that's what I've seen and other posters have agreed on. Do you think WoW online would be as popular if the gameplay mechanisms were as complex as some RTS games?

It's called the Wii effect... sometimes simple beats complex.

Again... not the exact engine... just the general sense of it.

Of course it would be different... I'm more talking about having a central hero/villain to focus on, allies, equipment, exhaust/resource system etc etc.

Actually... I'm not a WoW online player... so I'm not really a WoW TCG player... I like the engine from a design standpoint.
I would like it to be as **successful** as other card games, if it could keep its engine... that would be even better. The things that could keep the VS engine in its current form but make it more accessible would be redesigning the teams, focusing on major characters and simplifying card effects... which I think UDE is doing.
Probably the same reasons as you.

You say this as if you have any idea of what the majority of 'people want'. Might I suggest you put your money where you mouth is and tap into this great vain of knowledge and make the game everyone wants and reap the benefits.

You have a very small cross-section of info and you are attempting to use it to paint a huge conclusion. WOW very well might make it, but you have no idea, neither do I and until the future comes to pass there is no true indicator.

You are presenting hypotheticals as if they are fact. Changing the engine very well may have no effect on the game but you can't admit that.

If your argument were, 'something is wrong with VS. let's fix it' like some of your last few posts that's fine, but you are sitting here like you 'know' how to fix it because a handful of people agree with you. My point in your thread isn't whether you are correct or not, because no one actually knows that and it's inane to think someone could due to the number of factors there are to the success of anything, I am just here because the basis of your arguments in the first post are flawed.


Also general note for the board: if you think you are getting unfairly flamed you should report it. That's what that button is there for.

I like the bait I'll take it everytime. It tastes gooooooddddd.

I heart this thread. I heart it alot.

Qualifying statements: I play VS and WoW. I am a comic book junkie. I am not a WoW Online player.

Opinions: If VS was like WoW, I probably wouldn't play it. If WoW was like VS, I probably wouldn't play it. Howard the Duck looks sharp on a playmat.

Conclusions: Both game engines, in my opinion, reflect their content perfectly. When Jeff Donais said that things needed to change for the game to be successful, I did not interpret that as meaning the game itself needed to change. Clone or not, Madelyne Pryor is hotter than Jean Grey.