'kay, I'll remember to mention that to the "Yami" force I slaughtered this afternoon... :ermm:

try this one out for the next set

grinder
----santos(CNC)
-------refined pulse
4x df atv
3x df shock troopers
SC slyph ba
SC Fenrir ba
DF/SC SA

In play testing and in unrestricted, this force devistated most opponents it lost once because grinder failed a break away, shut down and got captured.

Forget the future this is the now.and here is a final revision of my thunder chicken army. I dont think it can go any further,maybe you guys have some Ideas


thunder chicken
SS merc contract
duke sandavol
----X-Axis
SS A4
2x SH TTL
---SS garrot(dont have a BR ANAT)
2x DF atv
BR atv
BR Sprint
---fa shih BR
BR Sprint
---JF Fenrir

I plan on pulling this one out tonight at great escape games.theres good competition there and will be able to judge the effectiveness of this army well
steveknight out

It was aventgottaclue I faced and he was using Blitz/Santos, Black Rose/Hazen and a Jaguar. I used my infantry and a Roku to prevent Yami being based. And blocking. Not one unit got close enough to Yami to even DFA it, let alone shoot it.

It depends on how you play it. When I say "X will kill you", take it as read that I mean "X (when played by a competent player who knows how to synergise his build and to place and utilise terrain) will kill you". The bit in brackets is a bit long-winded to include in every post.

With all due respect, White_Knight, was Yami played well?

This is an illegal build presently. In the next set it will be legal. However you lack Spirit Cat units so the alliance is a tad fragile.

I like the SC Fenrir. I know some don't but I think it's one of those dark horse units that surprises the bejeezus out of people because of the length of its dial. For 15 points. It's being included for the length of its dial. As an attacking option it isn't the best but as a jack-of-all-trades it takes some beating.

I like the DF units. Good workhorse infantry, if very vulnerable to the Caustic/SZT cards.

But then I begin to wonder. You have paid for a special ability that's really only being used by Grinder. Why? Grinder's good but when Grinder has to do all of the work he needs puddles. And lots of them. And you're spending 30 points on an ability that only 1 unit in your army will utilise.

Thunder Chicken is the nickname of the other Raptor.

This is another force that would fall foul (ouch) of Caustic and SZT. That aside, you have some options in there but you'd be better off using 3 LI ATV rather than the ones you chose. The extra points buy you a Merc Zahn or better still allow you to upgrade the TTL to the infinitely superior Steiner one.

Note that Bannsons ATVs are worthless unless you counter Caustic/Sub-Zero. At least a DF one has the chance of being alive at the end. The BR one has a very low likelihood ... don't believe me? The stats are on my website.

The lack of ArP artillery (save the SU SSw A4 that on its own won't count) means the battle against armored fatties must be carried by the Raptor. Bad heat dial and all. Add in the fact that armies are built to deal with 23 defenses with Decoy (which is approximately equal to a 25 defense) and you are not looking quite as invulnerable as you may first think.

However good stab. Synergy isn't bad. I can see what you are trying to do. Perhaps a bit unfocussed? Try being more about RHDM or being more about pog. Presently you're a bit thin on the marmite.

In all honesty, I'd question his willingness to throw things at my oncoming JHKs while Yami sat back - if he'd just used his Oni as a screen, I think things might have been a little different, although I should mention that I didn't even TRY to MDFA - it was all about closing and enveloping.

The only way I could see him holding me at arms length with the forces he had was to sit Yami in the crook of an H-building, with the Oni boxing of the rear. Even then, I could have initiated a slugging match.

Basically, as soon as he started trying to use his BAs as aggressive basers, I was sure I had the upper hand...

My comment shouldn't be taken as an offhand "well, I've never had a Shiro kick my tail", but I must confess that FACTION PURE, I've never found Yami to be as good as everyone else says it is. Hashira, sure, what a six of one, half a dozen of the other; Kaminari is usually a formidable opponent.

As soon as I close the range, the Shiro dies... ...I've been expecting Yami to pose a much larger problem, but it just never seems to materialize. :ermm:

Interesting. Yami is the easier of the three to play, IMO. He does encourage turtling a bit but then so would any other real long-ranged monster. I've had a Shiro based twice. Both times by infantry and both times the infantry died next turn. I've played Shiros in 3 tournaments so far. Shiros are about patience and timing. They are definitely finesse 'Mechs. They lack the defense for anything else.

As for CJF versus, well, anything, there are more ways than blocking to win, I'll admit.

The Jade Falcons have one very obvious disadvantage. Range. Against most opponents they are significantly outranged. The way around this is through use of an equaliser.

Dust Storm is an equaliser and one your opponent is likely to furnish to negate the threat of an MDFA or Jaguar-charge. Conveniently ignoring the fact that what it actually achieves is negating their range advantage, something they will get far more opportunity to exploit than a CJF force's MDFA.

Another equaliser is terrain. Specifically blocking, which is where my references to Yami and Streaks come in.

Of course there are others. Good synergy can overcome the range disadvantage. Another thing is "sacrifice". You offer your opponent a lesser threat they cannot ignore as the main threat gets into position. Done well, the sacrificial offering can still be potent enough to mop up whatever the main threat leaves in its wake. Generally these latter things are things good players and players who are intimitely familiar with a faction and playstyle can do in their sleep. I don't presume to teach grandma to suck eggs.

Ah on at least one occasion it wasn't a tournament, it was playing in the Byes. I can only say hand-on-heart I've played a Shiro competitively in a tournament once (for 3 rounds). The other occasions were against the Bye players.

Great, I was worried I'd have to get my teeth out of the jar again... :p

I've had my share of shiros' for and against.At first glance they are intimidating but when you crack their armour their no better then any other mech.piont cost wize a shiro could not be formidable in a 450 army,believe me I've tried it many times.this week I played to armies with lots of infantry. the mechs I faced didnt come into play until I ran from the hoards of infantry pecking at me.granted they were close matches but in competitive terms I was dictated to instead of imposing my shiro will upon my foes.One thing I know I hate loosing a shiro,its embarising,its degrading.one thing I know, I will only play Adam Stark in one for now on

Alright, I have a Steel Wolf build, 450pts. Need review.

1 Thunder Fox 130pts
w/Nais Grad Card 19pts
w/Armor Piercing 35pts
1 Blade 112pts
w/Albion Grad card 9pts
1 Hanse MBT 90pts
3 Undine Battle Armor 17/52[pts

Total:450pts

Planetary Conditions:Tornado and Active Volcanoes

The basic premice of this army is to get the T-Fox into hindering, which should be the 1st piece of terrian put down, about 3-6" from the DZ, perferrably on the right-hand side. The Blade sticks to the left, and if ever needed, a quick DZ strike or threat if the enemy is too much of a pogger. The Undines stay in front of the Hanse, which sits right next to the T-Fox in hindering. This is a basic defense army, and with no FPs or SAs, it 450 all units, meaning if I fight someone who DOES use a FP or SA, I start off the game automatically winning, meaning they have to attack me to win. Anyways, the T-Fox really just stays in the hindering the whole game unless forced to move away in case of pogs. It, and the Hanse are the main parts of this army, the Blade and Undines are there for support purposes.

I'm not sure why you'd put AP on the T-Fox when the Blade already has it. While there's something to be said for being able to crack problems, there's also a possibility of overkill.

There doesn't seem to be an easy way to get your units to their best clicks. C'est la vie.

What I would fear, in your place, is a concentrated attack. If you park the T-Fox in hindering, either he'll be the pog target or, worse, he won't be. Chances are they'll try to pog the Hanse down. One pog is good, two starts to get bad and you can't afford three. If the T-Fox is in hindering, the only effective anti-arty is the Blade. While the Blade is very good for it's points, it can't run into the teeth of 450 points and walk away. If the T-Fox is stuck at half-speed for a turn, that's an entire turn your opponent has to tee off on the Blade and turn it into slag.

I would drop the AP on the T-Fox and replace it with a Zahn, if you have it. That'll let you move the Hanse downfield much faster and allow you to keep a mobile aspect with your force. If you try to force an opponent to come to you, they'll target one piece and trash it past the sweet spot before turning on another. If you move everyone together, there's less opportunity to divide and conquer.

Here's a new take on Hellfire in LI/ROTS, with some new gear.

Hellfire PHXIIC 208
>Dean Sohnle 29
>LI Recruit 9
>Extended-Range Ammo 37
LI Anat APC 23
>ROTS Centaur BA 19
>ROTS Centaur BA 19
6x LI ATV (6x12) 72
LI Zahn 32
>ROTS Kelswa 96
2x LI Minigun Bikes
LI/ROTS SA 40
Total: 599

The change here is that you trade 4" of range for ER ammo on Hellfire. It's a little more expensive, but you don't take the pushing damage, you can assault at that range, and you can get a Liao recruit in on the mech for a reasonable price (well, I can, since I'm using Sohnle. I'd think Boris Vassilev would be another contender for the pilot with the +2 attack). You get some arty support with the Centaur Drop, you get a solid thwacking hammer with the Kelswa drop, and some solid basers in the ATVs. Once the Zahn's dropped its carge, the minigun bikes a free to zip around as well. They're filler and mobile basers after they've given the Zahn no-push moves.

Thoughts?

Well I got an unrestricted I want you guys to pund.

I know it s far from perfect - the SS Balacs though STILL are the longest range VTOL in the game :D (and still a personal fave) while very glass jawed and plain low on the defense...a determined ATV could hit it (well not even determined :P)

2 SS Balac's
2 SH DI Field Towed Artillery
6 SH ATV's
1 SS Special Forces Team
1 SS Thudner Fox w/ Aaron Sandoval

SS/SH SA card 450 on the nose.

Thoughts?

Dear Major,

I am a club player of no particular reputation, but I thought I'd like to try to comment on your army as an exercise.

I would agree with the proposition that any army design probably has a counter under the current rules, but that a good build should still be able to deal with at least a few of the currently used armies.

That being said, there are a couple of things that worry me about your army. First, the artillery has no armor piercing. This would be a problem against armies using Black armor, which is not uncommon (Yami, other Shiro's) Without AP, your artillery can't force the enemy to move-even some of the infantry with reactive armor. Second, your artillery has no transport. This would be a problem when you compare it to armies using one or two Arrow tanks, or a paladin/arrow for example, or one artillery and a transport. The enemy can drop, fire; then pick up to avoid damage on the next turn and repeat.

Another question is how you intend to defend your artillery. You can put the two artillery next to each other flanked on either side by a Balac, but I think you need at least two additional infantry pieces to prevent the artillery from being based. Many armies today will use a Sprint drop or enough ATV's to threaten the DZ on turn one. If you have to cluster your own artillery you also become a better target for enemy artillery, and you've tied up your own Balacs as well.

The SH ATV has the shortest infiltrate, so I don't see any first strike threat in your army, one less thing for your opponent to worry about.

Without a vehicle for the infantry you also have no convenient way of making a formation fire-think Red Based Nova Cat, or Black Rose, or BR Zeus. I am not sure how you can hit the 24 defense mech.

Quad mechs are interesting, better defense for the money. But I'd worry about a Fa Shih base, and I'm not sure this one can stand up to the larger Assault mechs or heavy mechs with 23-24 defense and 11-12 attack.

Vtols also are more risky now due to the large number of PC's which can hurt them. Your army would also be at risk from the esoteric PC's like caustic atmosphere or subzero, but of course you can prepare for those to some extent.

Alas, my poor Balacs, one of my favorite VTOLS as well......
To use the Balacs today with the higher defense mechs I think you need some way of stripping down their defense. I am not sure that the artillery which you have is enough to do that.

I'd practice with your army against the old Bounty Hunter army of BH plus about 10 ATVs, and also against Trevor Ydek with Extended range ammo and a towed Guass rifle drop and a few ATV's or some similar combo and see how it goes. With the increased mech ranges, I don't think people need to bring AA anymore.

I do like your mech with Sandoval. Its better than Arnis. Love the 14 inch range, good attack. Question is, should you add a SE to the mech? Impact armor or evade. I'd consider with evade, the 24 defense is hard for support forces to hit, presumably you'll stay away from tank+TGR drop. Impact armor I considered to equate roughly with Arnis' agility. The Dust Storm PC functions like agility; but it would limit the range of your mech. The improved targeting down the dial is a nice bonus, almost Kurita like. Ammo explosion is a negative, but nothing is perfect.

So, I think your army has good potential against the Zahn drop, since the Zahn has no armor, and you can double pog it every turn. I think that it will have trouble though against some of the assault mechs since your support, the Balacs, can't formation fire; and against a variety of enemy artillery choices.

In club play my son loves to use the Trevor Ydek mech with extended range ammo, preferably in a dust storm. His attack goes down to 7. Sadly, your artillery pieces and your Balacs would both be vulnerable to him even at maximum range. Ouch.