WOW, talk about a rare post.

So in areas without HL anyway, this is the death knell. So it looks like they finally decided to do something about poor PTOs, but they threw out the baby with the bathwater on this one. The structure announced will in NO WAY motivate local stores who aren't already running VS to start.

Just how many areas DO have active HL groups right now anyway? I hear it come up occasionally, but the vast majority of people on here say there are no local tourneys and no HL for them. Does this mean the PC will pull heavily form the 5 or 6 areas that do have HL support, and will run these tourneys?

I guess there is logic in all this. When the PC has about 30 people attend, that 100K will go a long way.

There are so many things I want to say.

This is my first post ever on a forum such as this. I have worked in comics and games for over a decade. I am an avid player of many games. VS is the big one for me though.

I want to put a big shout out "thank you" to stubarnes, Bendrix, Access, bortrea, PowrDragn, WalterKovacs and many many others for moving me to make an account and post.

So. At this point there are so many relevant (and not) things being thrown around that I feel are pent up energy not just from this announcement but from the whole evolution of the Vs community and the game itself. I want to avoid repeating other people here so I will do my best.

Some points I wanted to throw out there.

1. For those who would discuss the playability of Vs. I submit that while there are some aspects that take some time to "master" there is a fair amount of "out of the box" playability. Superman may not be able to beat "Faces of Evil" but a solid Superman curve can beat a large number of things. If the community pulls "High Voltage" on every newbie then how could we expect them to stay? The issue there isn't the playability of big names (although I will be the first to admit that Superman/Batman/X-Men etc SHOULD be top tier) some of it is straight up how people are introduced to the game. It's hard as a competitive and skilled player to tone down the ten teams, enemy, crisis builds but that is definitely one way I feel the community can help take some responsibility for the game if UDE works on bringing the top tier properties into the top tier of play.

2. For those that would discuss the complexity of Vs. I submit that many of you must not remember playing any other game ever. Many of us are not lacking in intelligence in this community and perhaps we forget that the first time we had to put our crew on the Enterprise, give Luke his lightsaber, use our energy on our Pokemon or interrupt a chain of instants being slung at us by an opposing "wizard" was a pretty harrowing and complex affair. If a ten year old can play lotus mox mox, and tinker for a Darksteel Colossus on turn one in high level competitive magic play (which was a little emasculating for those who understand the reference) then we can remember that CCGing is a complex affair period. WE can help as teachers. UDE can help in designing tiers of product for different levels of players but I see too many 8 yr olds playing Magic and building computers to honestly agree that Vs. is too complex for a gaming crowd. New players need not be young and young players may be able to figure things out that you "older" players cannot.

3. UDE is in a spot of trouble. No doubt. They looked at the books and said "AAAwwww crap!" Could they have done some things better? Sure. Can they make better, faster, stronger, decisions? No doubt! Was I the only one who heard them announce hiring more staff? Improving their website? Did Jeff Donias get on Metagame say "by the way we hate you all and uh no more Vs. ever!" ? No he didn't. HE did say "hey we are in a spot of trouble and uh here is why and what we think would work..." And then he turned around and posted it on a forums page...where the entire world could foam and rage and spit and cry and laugh and on and on and on...which leads me to point 4

4. Imagine if you will a boardroom or an office and in it are all the members of the UDE staff responsible for Vs. Imagine them cackling maniacally and taking the names of every known Vs. player and urinating on them in glee. Does anyone here think that happened? A company that doesn't WANT to make a product anymore doesn't. There is too much going for UDE in the cosmos for them to be concerned with killing a line if it ain't working.

They have been hesitant about telling us things. I am sure some of it is poor communication. I am sure some of it is Donias and staff saying "can you check those numbers one more time?" and some if it is just post Christmas rigamarole. But lets be honest here. A company that wants to watch a game die, kills it. They dont send or let their director hop on the forums and submit to tons of anger. Companies not interested in continuing a project don't listen to people unless they are interested in feedback.

You want a focus group? Pretty sure we are making one. Want PCQs? They needed to know it....and I am pretty sure we are sending the message.

There is room for improvement but if you recall Donias and others have used a lot of conditional phrases such as "at this time" and "the near future"...seems to me if Vs. players join together and say "HEY! I need these thing to play!" They might get them...unless the message is "hey I want my hobby to supplement my income more than any other hobby ever has!..."

I'm sorry that some of you can't make 25,000 dollars to play a card game now. I'm sorry you feel UDE being honest about the issue at this point means you need to just leave the game. But there have been 40+ pages of thought generated in ONE day for UDE to take and say "Oh hey! That is an awesome idea!" Since they have already done the two hardest things in a situation like this (Admitted their issues and submitted themselves for reprisal) can we maybe continue the discussion on how to make things better?

Comics brought me to Vs. The people I have met because of it make me stay.

I am no stubarnes. But maybe its a small rainbow for the less cynical.

Thanks for your post

Someone mentioned me. :grin:

QFT.

<10 char>

Edited for brevity ...
Wow, it's hard trying to get through the ever-growing list of pages and I apologise if this topic has been hounded to death in the 20 or so pages I have yet to read.

As an Australian PTO, UDE freelancer (art requests and flavour text for DC sets), fledgling Metagame writer and - most importantly - a massive comic book and Vs System fanboy ... I feel I have a lot invested in this game.

Disclaimer - I have no special or insider knowledge that I base any of the below on. I pretty much just know what everybody else knows (i.e. what has been publicly announced).

I'll admit right out of the gates that I'm a largely casually-focused guy, but I love the good times that occasional high-end tournaments provide (mainly in terms of catching up with members of the Australian Vs community from other states). I'm naturally concerned about elements of the announced changes, but I remain committed to this game regardless of the OP structure and prize support.

Onto David's ideas ... I think a lot of the goals behind your suggestions are good and worthwhile, but I also believe that the desired outcomes can be approximated without starting from scratch.

I wouldn't favour starting from scratch because I believe it would further alienate a player base that is already smarting a little. If Vs crashes and burns, then I would love if a new comic-focused game could rise phoenix-like from the ashes ... but everyone is hoping to avoid that situation in the first place.

Whatsmore, I think UDE has already identified these goals and has already set the ball rolling in the direction you are suggesting. In the next two sets (MTU and DWF), as well as the two expansions after that (MML and DDL, blindly guessing those will be the codes for those sets), UDE have focused on refeatured teams. It seems to me the fact that X-Men are returning in MML so soon after MXM indicates that the idea of core teams for Vs is already starting to take form.

Marvel Core Teams
X-Men
Brotherhood
Fantastic Four
Doom
Spider-Friends
Sinister Syndicate
Avengers
Masters of Evil
Marvel Knights/Marvel Defenders (alternating)

Teams like X-Men could potentially "absorb" allied teams like Morlocks, X-Statix and numerous teams not yet appearing in Vs System, with dual affiliations or use of versions (ala Wrecking Crew). Same for Fantastic Four and Inhumans and so on. But this can be done without changing the current structure of the game.

DC Core Teams
JLA
Villains United/Injustice Gang/Secret Society (splitting these teams up borders on semantics anyway, especially when there are umbrella teams like Emerald Enemies that aren't "true" teams in a comics sense anyway)
Gotham Knights
Arkham Inmates
Team Superman
Revenge Squad
Green Lantern/Speed Force (alternating)
Teen Titans
Darkseid's Elite/Anti-Matter (alternating)

Similar "absorptions" could work with DC too (JLA - JLI, JSA and even potentially Green Lantern since the key characters mostly overlap ... heck, JLA could just about absorb any DC hero team in a pinch).

Other teams not on either list could be refeatured much less frequently or just supported through dual affiliations and legacy content.

New teams could still be created, but could either be the one new team in a set and/or feature as mini-teams. UDE have proven that mini-teams can be designed to be successful in both sealed and constructed play, so there is no reason to feature full-sized teams that have to be padded out with less recognisable characters (as a fanboy, I love seeing those guys ... but I don't need to see quite so many of them every set).

Assuming each expansion carries three core teams, one new team and (maybe) one mini team, none of the listed teams would ever be dead in Silver Age. So you could either expand the list of core teams or have two new teams feature in every second set instead of one.

New teams are good for the game and will help UDE take full advantage of the great licences they have secured ... but by focusing on the core teams they will also be maximising the value they gain from those licences (ie high recognition in the target market).

So, David, based on the teams focus of the next four sets, as well as as an apparent back-to-basics approach (not new mechanics in MTU), it seems to me that you are will be getting most of your wishes in the near future.

I also hope that search is more heavily team-stamped and less powerful in general, but that's up to the designers. I hope they realise the importance of making the game more accessible. Fingers crossed.

Keep in mind that when MTU rotates in, MXM rotates out of Modern Age and Enemy of My Enemy will be gone in that format. When the set after DDL rotates in, EoME will be gone for Silver. It won't take that long to settle down and I predict that it will become increasingly better with every set release.

Even your avatar idea could be incorporated into the current framework without returning to the drawing board. I saw this done in other games I have played int he past. Personally I didn't like it that much, but that was just me. I agree with another poster, though, that I wouldn't want Vs to become a WOW clone (but a Raid-type Vs product would be gladly welcomed, people in my play group when as far as to design our own) ... I just don't enjoy that game as much.

As for the name of the game, shrug. "Vs" certainly turns up in comics, but your point isn't without merit. Unfortunately we're stuck with it for better or worse. ;)

Sorry this is so long ... I get carried away easily.

Because the idea of hosting a Release Celebration is not appealing?

Taking in the players that WOULD have PCQs and instead having them attending City Championships and the like?

Perhaps it's a wake-up call to areas that don't have HLs ... in part because they just go to PCQs instead.

5 or 6 areas that have HL support?

I'm pretty sure that considering we have one in Ottawa, and there is Hobby League support in Montreal, that our little area doesn't make up a THIRD of all Hobby Leagues out there ...

After reading the posting by Jeff a few dissapointments ran through me.I judge the PCQs so I don't get to play at that level often. I have not attended any of the high level OP events and never really felt I missed something. I will miss seeing the guys since I drive 2 hours to the PCQs it draws players from the surrounding area and it is good to talk to them once a month. It was getting to the point of the same 14-20 people were showing up all the time so I do understand the whys.
I have chosen not to sanction the stores hobby league to keep the games casual. I guess I will need to change that.While the hobby league is not large we do have two in Omaha, with only 2-3 players that attend both, and a thrid one in Lincoln 50 mile away. Hopefully we can build the hobby league larger. I belive there is only one game store (out of 7) that I could go in and not buy VS cards.So we still have the stores we just need the players.
One thing I did was start a Yahoo group of VSOmaha to inform players of VS events in and around Omaha. While the group is not large I am pimping it as much as I can to the locals. (and we all know pimping ain't easy). As the community grow hopefully the communaction will stay strong.

Another thing to note...

Many people have mentioned that they play in events in stores that aren't sanctioned. This is not good. And honestly, I've been guilty of that as well. However, we have a strong VS crowd, so it hasn't been needed.

Anyway, you need to sanction your games AT LEAST a week in advance using the MANTIS software. In a perfect world, you'd want to sanction them 3-4 weeks out. This way, if a player is traveling through town, he can easily find a place that plays VS. Or, there might even be some locals that just don't know where the tournaments are that are buying online or from Wal-Mart.

INDY will be the deciding point of this game, by then we will know if it will continue or not. I will use that PC as my last show, and measuring stick to see if i still have it for the game or not.



In Iowa i am attempting to having a city champs that is going to be better then the rest of yours... really i am trying to put on the best tournament a broke college student can, and if the only thing i have for competition is to make a better tournament then any of you, i guess thats what i will have to do. I have the full coop with the store owners for the event and if any of you from around the area want more info PM cause im still hammering out some details but am going to post next week on what i got.

Regarding Ike e Bears post: we should have more high profile players (HPP) back up that the game of VS? where are they?

bignuts

edit - once the HPPs get here they could be quite old? 8-/

Two words: Naming Rights

I'd drive a few hours to play in the Taco Bell $50K Modern Age Invitational. Or the Marvel Comics $25K "Hey, we finally shipped Civil War #7" Marvel Modern Age Open.

Jeff, you can just PM me the job offer, I'll start packing for the move to California. :D

VS has a lot of Barriers that prevent it from being widely successful. The problem is that these barriers aren't small things that can be avoided. The player must literally be drug through them all in a linear sequence to get fully into VS even on a basic functional casual level.

Barrier 1
This game doesn't connect to people interested in the license alone. Our store is literally coated with Comics, Action Figures of Comic characters, and nerds interested and discussing comics. They look at VS and go, Where is batman? Who are these people? This is a comic game?

Barrier 2
We have people that love comics and CCGs and won't even touch the game because we mention that Batman, Superman, X-men, yeah, they all suck balls unless you like mix them with Hellfire Club members and well batman sorta works if you build this combo deck around A child named Valeria and Cosmic Radiation... and so on

Barrier 3
Then even if you get past this barrier they go ok so I wanna play a lets say an Avengers deck with Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man and stuff. The first thing you do is go, "Ok can you live without Iron Man. Hes all crazy with the whole Civil War thing anyway." after eluding this problem you then reach the problem of this.

Barrier 4
Ok to build a deck that doesn't implode on itself your gonna need X at each drop up the Curve and your gonna want redundant plot twists oh and to make sure your deck can Actually hit Captain your gonna need to fit in a couple random characters you may not want and also you'll need to pick up 4 X of this rare Avengers Assemble.

Barrier 5
Bad magic decks made up of a bunch of random spells built from purchasing some packs work for the purposes of playing the game. Bad Vs decks completly explode and provide no thrill to the player playing them because missing a drop loses you the game until your opponent misses. The game seems almost completly luck based at this point and almost stupid. You are clear with them they are gonna need to get a good list of specific cards to make a deck that works.

Barrier 6
Even if after telling them this they go ok so I want to get these cards. You go well heres where you get on the VS singles market and buy cards because buying small numbers of packs will never allows you to build a fully functional deck. For that reason most of us don't have a lot of extra random cards to go around. Especially when money is tight for most players playing casually anyway.

Barrier 7
Now here comes where you try to help them learn how to play their deck. Look out Speedbumps ahead like: Reverse chain, Triggered Abilities for all kinds of random parts of the turn, Chaining to Costs to make effective plays, you can respond to some effects but costs can't be... OH GOD watch out for Formation and Reinforcement.

If you make it through the game rules, Now after building their deck and experiencing a true solid game of VS between functional decks, (If they survived getting to this point) they go this game is awesome!

Hurray victory! BUT WAIT Now we reach the ominous point of whether or not this person is going to be usefull the the VS community and UDE.

Barrier 8
So they play their deck and they are still having fun. The license oriented player that gets excted about VS then gets stuck in the rut and goes. Well I really only want to ever play the Avengers because they are most awesome ever..... (This is the point where I spout expletives in my head)

So now you have a player who essentially doesn't buy product. Hes nice to play a few random games with but overall as time progresses he gets less and less usefull, or you can also get this guy.

I think I'll only ever want to play with X and X team but I don't wanna buy packs and get cards I'll never use. I also hate DC its for all the superjesus fanboy lovers. I'm never gonna buy any DC. (Disclaimer: This is no reflection on my stance on comics. I am a universal fan of comics and like reading them all surprising thanks to VS system)

Conclusion
This fun little progression I go about doing is something that basically happens all the time when we try to get people into the game. Only one player out of probably the 20 plus people we got standing around the game while we play has made it past all these hurdles and started actually playing all aspects of the game.

Theres just so many entry barrier problems and conflicts with flavor of the license itself. This is why this game is in the situation it is in now. It will turn into and forever be a niche game.

Sadly no one is ever gonna read my post as its in far too deep. Sigh...

I just ordered a box of MTU and convinced a mate of mine to pick up the game. Naysayers - quit with the naysaying. Everyone go out a grab a new guy/gal.