But see heres where you misunderstand! We are supposed to promote their product for UDE! We are supposed to get people to play their game! We are supposesd to encourage our local shops to BUY UDE'S ADVERTISING and then maybe turn a profit on it because only a couple of the local players here can even afford to buy a couple packs a week.

/end sarcasm

Jeff donais says that he expects players to drop, though I dont think he understands how many players will actually drop. I can see many of the pros quitting. Also where I live there are no hobby leagues so PCQ's were the only way for me to playtest and now I got nothing. Oh well, its been fun while it lasted. I'm prob gonna end up quitting if things aren't changed a bit. I hear spoils is fun. I also don't understand why UDE is making Sydney a 300,000 PC and INDY a 100,000 because most of its players are here in the U.S. I think it should have been the other way around. Once again, Oh well.

If Jeff is still reading this thread, please look at the above post from another thread.

If this is what is happening in Europe, willwe see the same issues here in the states? Replacing manchester with the PC or so.

I wish more people would stop the pissing contest and address the actual issues.

Maybe you don't like the way Dave frames his posts... but the content is irrefutable.

Show me those millions of casual players and I'll show you the return of PCQs/PCs/10ks/50ks.

Jeff's sigged quote should be:

"If I had a buck for everyone who was a casual player, I could probably restart the OP program."

Erick is right.

The casual players in my store buy maybe 10 packs a set over the course of their entire play period. Which is fine if we have lots of casual players.

I consider myself Semi-Pro. I buy 2 boxes a set plus singles to complete decks. I know there are handfulls of players on this board who buy rediculous amount of cards to play casually, but this is the internet. The reason you are on this site is because you love the game. The middle ground isn't the people on this site. Its the other people at my store who aren't online. Who barely buy anything. The fact that its impossible to find Hobby League in central Ohio is clear that there is something wrong with the fundamentals of the game causing it to not be popular. (We host Origins for christs sake the nerds are here)

IF you don't see Hobby League happening in your area (yet you see the retailers), then try to make it happen. I shopped my Level 1 goodenss around, and I have about 12 players between two areas, but hey its still better than nothing.

I think VS Promo should be given out during comic movies like pokemon and digimon

I think they should bring back VS advertisment in comic books like they use to. Out of nowhere it stoped, so I strongly feel they should put those back

IDK my 2 cents

You're right, Magic did do just fine. Magic also didn't cut out hundreds of thousands of dollars and cancel a big event series that was proposed to the players.

I don't really want to get mucked up in this argument because I've read every single post on this thread since it started a few days ago and have therefore seen that the two base sides are not going to agree with eachother or relent any ground. I could make a post for one side and it'll likely be followed by a "QFT, repped you" and then a swath of people on one side breaking down every single word that I used and that my "the"'s and "and"s are being unfairly used against them. So I'll just say this.

I play VS. as a side game to Magic. I like the system and the game, but it doesn't have the local support for me to play it enough. Call me a traitor or whatever or complain that I could be getting people into VS, but I don't have the time or connections with friends to get anybody else but the people whom I play Magic with to try out VS. I'm not casual because I strive to win, but I'm not reading every article and analyzing each deck like I do in Magic either. I have solid playskill, which allows me to navigate outdated decklists to decent finishes in events. I have made a little money off of VS. from splitting the finals of a PCQ, but that's it. PCQ's were the main place that I got to play, but now they're gone which saddens me. A PTQ style event should be a standard for a game like this.

What the casual people who play aren't realizing is that, while money does heightens the level of competition and gets people interested who want to strive for the dream of winning a PC, it's there for another reason: to recoup costs. To fly out to an event, book a hotel, pay for all of your (oft expensive) small costs like food, and buy cards for a deck can be a very expensive venture, especially if you're taking time off your job to play and losing out on money that way. The fact of the matter is, few people top eight a PC and get the extravagant amount of money for doing so. The amount of money given for first place at a PC, even after these cuts, is still a lot of money. But what about the above average pro who scrapes by in the top 64 or 32? Cutting prizes makes it less appealing to fly out to one of these large events because, unless you're an established pro and you're going anyways, you can't have your sights set on the trophy, that just isn't realistic. It is much more likely that if you do relatively well, you'll pick up enough money to offset your costs, give or take a few hundred dollars. When you eliminate money from the middle and low section of the prize payout, you end up reducing the appeal for somebody to come to the event because of the price involved.

It's not all about the money. Money just offsets your costs and adds in the extra competition as the thing that gets your adrenaline pumping to win the match. Sure, some lucky people walk away from the PC thousands of dollars richer, but any reasonable person going to one of his first PC's isn't going to expect to win the whole thing. He's just aiming to get experience and try to well enough to pick up some money to cover some of his costs.

I just see the same old arguments between casual and competitive on this thread happening over and over, maybe this will shed some light. Keep in mind that arguing between yourselves isn't going to solve the overall problem here.

This is the best post I've ever read.

Thank you for all your thoughts, and I really hope more people can understand.

In order to get VS big again or rather save it from the breach of death

Reprint Savage Beat Down & Enemy of My Enemy in Marvel Legends

Reprint Mobilize & Straight To The Grave in DC Legends

Since the numbers will be different, collectors cannot bich about being rob...and maybe use different art work...again my 2 cents.

This way it will make it easier for new ppl to play and have good cards, so they can use there favorite tier 2 teams with tier 1 cards. I strongly feel it will get a bigger crowd than b4 and maybe have the game come back to its original format

The retailers don't even have the product unless you bug them to order it. Then of course they expect you be able to show that you have enough people to go through the whole box.

Reasonable, but when not taught, some people see a pack with the "X-men" printed on it and get a pack with little to no x-men.

Not everyone has a helpful group to teach them the basics of TCGs.



Except that you only need two people to have a compition really. Also, what compeitive level?


Also true. But this can be a very hard game. Formation, chains, tons of keywords, etc. Also, this, again, assumes an active and helpful play group.



I think what he's saying is that the comics don't always translate to the game. People undersatand this, comic book fans understand this, but people playing purely for the comics can't change their decks when the comics change. Meaning, you can't have an epic battle like in Civil war when you want to (Unless you make your own rules).



Sure, they like the game, buy the cards, spend cash to go to a PCQ( Oh, wait) then go and get SMASHED. Or at their hobby league. If you have cash to spend and not have any intrest in winning, all the best.

Thanks for lowering my tie-breakers/rating.






Yes, then, when they build their own deck and decide they want to play a purely comic book based deck, then get smashed, they will lose intrest. Again, it's no fun when you lose on turn 4. The game goes "Lose a drop? lose the game". For a player who knows only the basics, it's harsh.




This depends on the area ... there are some that like the game so much they buy boxes of every set and rarely get around to doing it. However this is a 'down the line' issue. At this point the player is saying "I want to invest money in this game" ... Now they could get turned off by the cost of doing so as a 'barrier' ... but Modern Age is good for a reason ... they can focus on a single set and likely get a decent [not necessarily great] modern deck out of it, and have to chase down [trading/buying] singles from the other modern sets to fill it out.

See, the horse pulls the cart, it doesn't push it.

No, it's a mule (LOL TDC), meaning it's slow as hell. Sure, you could play modern, but only when it's available.




He talking about after being taught the game. As for the mre complicated stuff, that is actually very common and basic. You need to know how to renforce, what the chain is, etc. It's not just "play a resource, turn characters sideways, pass." This is a complex game, as is most TCGs (Try explaining even Yu-gi-oh to a group of 8-12 year olds..."I can't count to 1000!")


And isnt teaching the game wihout involving more advanced stuff just letting the player jump into a game without explaing some of the intracasies letting them jump off the cliff themselves?

Sealed is a horrible way to explain deck building, in terms with constructed. Things don't work the same. How many people are going to run rabbit fire?

Sealed is a good place to start, not to teach. Also, draft is the hardest format, bar none. You have to be able to work out archtypes, first pics, resisitng rare-drafting. You have to be a good deck builder, know what to draft, then be a good player. Granted, this is on the basis of winning, but reguardless, draft is not a great way to start playing the game as it can be a HUGE frustration.


Ditto.

I agree, but still found the whole "casual players are just people who aren't good enough to play pro" thing agressively stupid.

Here's what I believe is the situation (I tend to classify players as casual, casual-tournament, competitive, and pro. I find these pretty self-explanatory, but if you need clarification let me know):

1. Vs. can not survive as a game only for pro and competitive players. This is because (a) Top players will by their very nature take more money from UDE than they put in; and (b) The nature of Vs., being a game where the better player almost always wins, means that few people delude themselves into thinking they have a chance at that level. A higher luck factor in a game leads to a higher delusion factor, which is very good for building high numbers of wannabe-pros (see Magic and poker).

2. Vs. does not at present have a sufficient casual and casual-tournament player base to justify major OP expenditures. (What you want is an iceberg, with the visable players vastly outnumbered by those underwater.)

While the IP involved is a perfect fit for casual players, the complexity is simply too much (to those players who identify themselves as casual and think I'm insulting them, I'm actually calling you smarter than average). For some, the complexity simply means the game isn't fun; for others, it means it takes too much time to get a handle on, so the game is put away. People only have so much time to devote to hobbies.

For casual-tournament players, this is compounded by the following: the low luck factor means they don't win enough to stay interested; and the multi-team and weak-mains factors, and the fact that the game doesn't really FEEL like comic books a means that any advantage from the IP is squandered. And oh yeah, there's these broken decks that are just no fun to play against.

3. Ultimately, the reason so many of us play this game is what hurts it. It's simply too complex :ermm:

4. The causal and casual-tournament player base for the game CAN be improved. The announcements are mostly built around the casual-tournament player (making local play matter, bringing in somewhat cool prizes, etc.). Whether they're effective remains to be seen.
The new sets are mostly built around the casual player (with recognizable heroes, though reducing the math-test aspect of the game would help).

5. However, UDE has pretty much given up on this game as a Magic-beater. There's a cap to how many people will play such a mentally involving game. The fact that UDE's second attempt at a Magic-beater was much simpler, more luck-based, and ripped off Magic so hard that I'm amazed they didn't get sued, is a pretty good sign that they understand this.

6. The next few sets are key. If sales go up (due to better use of the IP and a greater emphasis on fun), Vs. can survive as a niche game with a decent audience and maybe even moderate prize support. If not, well, it's been nifty.

True ... but his barriers were presented as someone teaching him the game.

The "no one to teach you" barrier is a completely different one.

It is possible to have two decks compete against each other without both decks being top tier.

One step in attracting players is giving them incentive.

If the argument is "It's hard to get players into the game because I just pwn the noobs way too hard whenever they come out looking to play" ... then it's obvious where the barrier is.

I know some people love certain aspects of the game, but maybe ... just maybe ... there are barriers that can be overcome by individuals shifting their own playstyle.

That's all I'm suggesting.

It only takes 2 people to play a game ... you said that earlier.

So, anyone talking of barriers ... well I was suggesting ways to break DOWN the barriers. Someone has to help new players in order to develop those new players. It can be anyone.

Saying "But that would mean there needs to be helpful players" is restating the solution.

The way to get new players is for people to BE helpful players.

True ... so certain players may not get as much enjoyment out of the game, or refuse to play the game because it's not a 100% accurate representation of the comic world. The thing is ... no matter WHAT is done with Vs. on either side of the equation [the player side or the UDE side] it's going to be impossible to get this exactly right. UDE can try to make flavor better, yes.

And again, what is to stop you from making your own rules to try to get a certain player to have more fun. Heck, UDE is even implementing 'new rules' for 10Ks to give players a chance to have some fun.

Your assumption is that the area has a Hobby League area that is very competitive. Now, if that area WANTS new players ... it might JUST have to look at itself and see that the hyper-competitive players are again ... a barrier to entry.

It's fine to ask for UDE to stop giving you massive hammers to crush noobs with ... but players ALSO have the ability to encourage growth by NOT crushing noobs. By encouraging players.

I'm not saying these aren't real problems. I am, however, saying there are ways that PLAYERS can address these problems instead of hoping/waiting/expecting that UDE solves them. It's EASY to shift the responsibility onto the company ... but that doesn't mean it's better. People move much faster than companies, no matter what people think about the timing of set releases.

The question is ... what is more important? Your rating to get to the next PC? Or getting more players into the game which can then increase the amount of money that can be put PACK into the PC.

I don't fault players for being ONLY concerned with competition and such ... but don't expect UDE to fix all the problems of 'barriers of entry' when that very attitude is ONE of them.

IF THEY ARE PLAYING AGAINST A CUT THROAT.

Again, you don't give someone water wings and throw them in the ocean.

The problem is basically "You can't throw a random assortment of characters you like together and make a good deck that won't get dominated by finely tuned decks played by skilled players showing no mercy."

So the possible solutions include:

(a) Try to build up a players confidence slowly
(b) UDE makes EVERY TEAM equally playable, or at least, every 'popular' character has to be the BEST POSSIBLE character for their team, and those teams have to be top tier. [And of course ... then the comic book fans, who are more likely to like OBSCURE characters, who get talked into the game hate how they have to play Supermand or Batman or Wolverine, who they get sick of, or else get crushed when they play their favorite characters. Or they play as the all powerful Darkseid or Thanos and get their butt kicked by Spider-Man and ask why THAT is ...

Ultimately, most problems can be solved by UDE or by players ... or both.

Raising this issues let's UDE know about them. However, I'm just saying ... there are things PLAYERS can do to.

Or maybe you are right, the barrier is too high, Vs. is a horrible game for casual players, they shouldn't play it, the game will die and maybe later on a new one that is better for casual players will come along.

OR maybe we need to wait a good 2 years for enough new sets to come out to shift the metagame enough so that all the problems are solved. Just hold on until then.

Hobby Leagues can MAKE it available.

The players can MAKE it available.

It's not like anyone is FORCING them to play in a specific format like say ... at a PCQ.

Teach them slowly.

Teach the basics.

Then add in the special stuff like the various keywords.

If the barrier was so impossible to get over ... how in the heck are so many people playing the game already.

Can UDE make things simpler? Yes.

Can they do it quickly? No.

Can players help new players to learn? Yes.

I'm suggesting while we WAIT for UDE to start fixing these issues we can do things ourselves to help with these problems.

I'm not DISMISSING it ... I'm just saying that part of the problems comes with not 'handling' the new player correctly. It's turning the hurdles that do exist into barriers by not giving the new player help.

I'm merely talking on the level of making decisions. Once you get MORE cards, you can make better decisions, obviously.

Which is why I did say that draft was right out.

However, I do feel that sealed can help in terms of getting a feel for the game, and for building decks. The importance of hitting your drops and such is shown. Now, obviously, when you are restricted to building with limited options, decks are different. However the foundation of consistency is still there.

Summary:

I'm not trying to dismiss the barriers ... I'm giving suggestions on how to help those players overcome said barriers.

Very concise, agree with a lot of it.

Another issue:

Is it even possible for everyone to be competitive? It's not possible for everyone at an event to have a winning record. A game can't be filled with "winners" ... In any tournament, HALF [or less] will end up with winning records. That means there needs to be fun to be had win OR lose. There needs to be a reason for those players that don't win to be playing. And part of that may just mean don't beat them as badly. Give them a fighting chance.

I remember the person talking about demo'ing the game saying one of the most important things ... let them win in the demo. The success of the game is not tied to any person's success in playing the game. Would I rather get 1st place at the LAST PC in Indy? Or get 100th place at Indy but there will be many more to come? If I could get 2 people into the game at the cost of having my own ranking go down the toilet and thus I'd need to win an LCQ to qualify for a Pro Circuit ... I'd be fine with that.

The PCQ's were highly competitive ... even with Amateur prizes, they were unforgiving to newer players.

Hopefully the new HL system can be a place where 'casual' players feel welcome. The only people that can determine that are the people that go to them though.