No, not really.... Pounce has always worked the same way, and this doesn't change anything except for objects. Pounce has always been that you can NOT perplex, ICwO, or otherwise modify the Dmg above 2 (BEFORE the Pounce's additions go in). The objects change makes it so that they now modify damage, which is why they can't be used if they increase your damage above 2.
You seem to be misunderstanding the difference between overall effect and prerequisites.

That's not the ruling... you can't have a Dmg value of 2 and increase it before Pounce goes into effect.

You're not reading what I said.

It's about consistency.

You (and, for the record, nbperp) are both saying that you now count the modifiers for the object before the Pounce action is made. In effect, if the object (which isn't being used to deal damage and thus not actually modifying anything ... yet) would push your Damage value above the 2 Damage requirement, you can't Pounce.

You're saying that you can't modify your Damage value at all -- via Perplex, Objects, ICwO, or any other means -- above 2 and still Pounce.

I'm saying that's fine.

But, in order to be consistent, you have to also figure that Pounce itself is a modifier. And, if we're now counting all potential modifiers to Damage value before determining whether or not a Pounce is legal, then we also should have to count the modifier that Pounce itself provides.
But, that's just it.

You're saying that you can't modify your Damage before the Pounce action is made, and -- technically -- you're not. If you were modifying damage before the Pounce goes into effect, simply by holding an object, you could argue that you could pick up a Heavy Object and enjoy a +2 Damage to your Ranged attacks as well.

It doesn't work that way.

The object doesn't do anything to modify your Damage value unless and until it's used in an attack.

Your Damage value isn't modified by the object at all until a Close Combat attack is made, which is after the Pounce action goes into effect and why Pounce itself can modify your Damage value.

No, I read what you said and I understand your point fully well. It has been the same since Pounce first came out.... Pounce will increase your overall damage value to 3, and that is the ONLY thing that can modify your damage value. If you add an object into it, you'll have the following example:

Spiderman wants to activate Pounce. He checks his Dmg is 2, LC is showing and active (not OW'd), so he goes for it. He grabs a heavy object on the way (to express my point), and finishes his movement adjacent to an opponent. He initiates his attack with the object, so his damage value goes up to 4... this exceeds the requirements for Pounce, so the attack becomes invalid. Since Pounce was already initiated, Spiderman takes a click of damage.

Now, that is how it would essentially happen if it was allowed.... taking a click for moving. If we did the SAME example without the object in there, the attack would have a +1 Dmg and +1 AV (which is what Pounce grants), and the attack would follow through successfully.


If that's not good enough for you, let's pretend that there's a new Special Power that works exactly like Enhancement, but only for close combat attacks instead of ranged. If Fig A with said power is at a spot adjacent to where Spidey is Pouncing to (without the object and with 2 Dmg) so that Spidey could normally use the power, he couldn't use the Special Power to increase his damage (which happens at the time of the attack, not beforehand) because that invalidates the Pounce action.

Not quite.... Basically, the requirements of Pounce and any Feat that has requirements like this and increases those stats are going to be such where the increase that the feat grants are the ONLY allowances that would put it over the requirements.

Does that clear it up or make it worse?

Pounce increases your damage value by 1. We're clear on that, right? It does that as soon as you declare that you're using Pounce--we're clear on that too, right? So why would you be able to get a 3 damage via Pounce itself and still be able to keep pouncing, yet picking up an object during your Pounce which now increases damage value apparently would stop you from Pouncing? In both cases, your DV is going beyond the pre-requisites, and the timing is basically the same. What works for one, should work for the other, I don't see any possible counterargument for that except 'Because I'm the RA and I said so'.

Because of the reasons that I stated in my several paragraph post right before yours.

Any feat that has a requirement of a certain stat that it also modifies ONLY requires that stat to meet the requirements before the feat's effect. That's why a 2 Dmg figure with LC can USE Pounce... because the CARD says it can.
If you add an object, that increases the damage value above the 2 Dmg that the card requires ASIDE from the feat's effect.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding with this basic concept

The misunderstanding is because you're now checking the prerequisites multiple times.

You check them first when the Pounce is initiated.

At that point, whether you're carrying an object or intending to pick one up along the way, as long as the Damage printed on your dial is 2 or less and you've got Leap / Climb showing, you qualify.

Then, for some backwards reason, it's been determined that you need to check it again ... this time, after you've already qualified to perform the action, to make sure that you still qualify to perform the action.

But, now, you're only disqualified if you don't qualify because certain, specific modifiers (like Objects, in this instance) disqualify you after-the-fact, but not if you're being modified by other things like, you know, Pounce itself.

The ruling is inconsistent and counter-intuitive.

You need to be able to check for the pre-requisites once and, if you qualify, you qualify. You shouldn't have to make sure that the move is still legal after other events have taken place, whether it's part of resolving the action or not.

No... if you lose the prerequisite before finishing something on a feat, you can't continue USING the feat. If a feat required flight, and the figure assigned to it goes into the area of the Aerial Baffler, they can not continue to use that feat for that action. It isn't "checking the prereq multiple times", it's LOSING the prerequisite.
In all technicality, if GD allows you to pick up an object, you wouldn't be able to make the attack because that's when you lose the requirements.... and you would take a click for moving. Why would you want to do that if GD says you can?


Inconsistent compared to what? So far, there aren't any other rulings I can think of that go any other way..... and technically, this isn't a "ruling" as of yet, I think... it's a "tentative ruling" because nbperp is asking GD.

Where does it say that? Can you point it out where it says you have to do that?

From the LoSH Rulebook:

You decide to make Spider-Man Pounce, you check when you give him the Power Action that Pounce instructs you to give him whether or not he meets the pre-requisites. If he does at that point, you can Pounce.

Also from the LoSH Rulebook:

Quote

If a feat modifies a character’s attack value, defense value, or damage value, apply any modifications to those combat values during the attack before the attack roll, but after applying any replacement values.

So, when does an object modify the Damage value?

Quote

If a character is using a light object in a close combat attack, modify the character’s damage value by +1 for the attack. If a character is using a heavy object in a close combat attack, modify the character’s damage value by +2 for the attack.

It would appear that the answer is 'during the attack, before the attack roll'.

Determing that one modifier, checked after you've already qualified to perform the Feat, disqualifies you from being able to complete the action while the other modifier, also checked after you've already qualified to perfrom the Feat, does not disqualify you is inconsistent.

Yes, you're right--the card says that a 2 damage figure can use Pounce. However, after starting to Pounce, the figure is no longer a 2 damage figure--it has, as you replied to Jacin, 'lost the prerequisites' and can no longer perform the action. If, as this tentative ruling suggests, you have to meet the prereqs for the entire duration of the action. Previously, it was assumed that you only check for the prereqs when you declare the action--if you meet them, you continue on to actually using the action, which then makes you no longer qualify (due to Pounce's +1); only that doesn't matter because you only check to see if you qualify at the time of declaration, which you did at the time. Now we're apparently checking at every instant to see if you meet them, which means as soon as you start pouncing you have to stop pouncing. It's pretty much 1 + 1 = 2, here. Unless the RA/rulebook specifically says that from now on a feat can't cause you to no longer qualify for itself.

The further implications are that Extended Range also can no longer let you increase your range above 8, making a bad feat even more useless.

Not quite.... you're pushing the wrong logic too far, and I've already covered this.
You don't take a feat's modifiers into considdering the requirements to HAVE the feat... otherwise, you're creating a paradox that doesn't exist.

Oh, and the actual use of Pounce hasn't changed, nor has the ruling.... it works the same way with these rules as it did the day it came out... just not with Super Strength.

Okay..... so where is the rest of what I was asking you to show me? Where in the rulebook does it say that you ONLY have to meet the requirements when you initiate the action for the feat?

If you lose the requirements for a feat, you can NOT continue using the feat... it's as simple as that. Same reason if you lose Flurry after you make the first attack from it, you can't make the second attack from it. If you lose a power that is a requirement for a feat (like the flight example I gave), you would have to stop the action right there. If you try to breakaway from adjacency to RS or Charge and fail the breakaway, you can't make the attack....
These are all reasons that give more than enough reason and precidence that if you lose a prerequisite for a feat/action, you can't finish the action you've started.

You guys are arguing points that aren't valid. Keep 'em coming, though... I like a good debate.

I already did, quoting from the rulebook in post #68.
Where does it say that?
Uh, no. If you lose Flurry prior to making the second attack, you can't make the second attack because Flurry explicitly states as much on the PAC.

See? Entirely different reason.
Again, because the rules explicitly state as much.

Note that missing from that statement of what can disqualify you from being able to use a feat is combat values.

The only time that the rules instruct you to check to see if you meet the prerequisites is at the beginning of the action. If you meet them then, unless there are rules specifically state otherwise (as there were in each of your other examples), you should be able to carry out the action.

It's amazing! Those heroclix rulebooks don't just look good on your shelf, they're chock full of all kinds of interesting rules.

Yes, you said where it says you need to meet the requirements to START an action from a feat..... I'm asking you to point out where it says that you have to meet the requirements of a feat ONLY at the beginning (like if you lose the requirements)

Right. It says that to prevent needing an FAQ.... the REASON is because you lose the power, so you can't finish using something that you don't have.

That's probably because they forgot to put it in there (as there is only a couple feats that have stat requirements). If you can point out where that quote is from, nbperp can pass it along and have the statement corrected.
If you lose a requirement for an action of any sort, you can not continue the action. There is already a LOT of precidence to this fact. I'm at work, so I don't have my PAC/Rulebook available to look.

No, I'm just using logic, and seeing where it takes me.

No, you don't add the feat's modifiers in to see if they can have the feat assigned to them, because until the feat is in use the modifiers don't actually exist. However, when you use the feat, they do, and until you can prove otherwise, the modifiers from the feat itself work exactly the same as all the other modifiers in the game in terms of losing prereqs--meaning they can prevent you from using the feat.

We've pointed it out to you. Why don't you try showing us where it says anything else.

There is precisely one place in the rules where it tells you to check to see if you have the prerequisites for the Feat, and the only time it tells you to see if you meet those requirements is at the beginning of the action.

I've quoted that for you.

There is another place in the rulebook where it states, specifically, what will cause you to not be able to utilize a Feat. And, it is noteworthy that it does not include modifiers to statistics except when modified prior to checking to see if you can use the Feat (ie: you can't perplex down your Damage to use Pounce, and you can't Perplex up your Damage beyond 2 and then use Pounce).

That's also been quoted for you.

You've given examples that you claim were past precedents for this ruling that were nothing of the sort but, rather, actual rules from the Rulebook and the PAC.

So, now, the burden of proof would be on you, not us, to state your case citing, from the Rulebook and the PAC, actual rules that support it.

And then, nbperp can come in here, read both sides, and add himself to my sig line.