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Tim Drake, you also forget how Countdown had the sub-plot "Monarch vs. The Monitors" & the Countdown: Arena tie-in miniseries. Did either Infinite or Final Crisis have anything tying into that? HECK NO!!
Tim Drake, you also forget how Countdown had the sub-plot "Monarch vs. The Monitors" & the Countdown: Arena tie-in miniseries. Did either Infinite or Final Crisis have anything tying into that? HECK NO!!
Countdown never happened. That's the basic stand of DC.
Yep... which is both a good and a bad thing. There were some decent parts to Countdown (the Challengers, and the Piper/Trickster stuff), and Paul Dini probably did his best with the editorial nightmare he was handed... but on the whole, Countdown is better off forgotten. What sucks is that I plopped down $2.50 a week for that crud for an entire year, not to mention the Death of the New Gods "mini" series, and was then told: "Ooops, we didn't know what we were doing, and none of that stuff actually happened. We just screwed you out of $250+ dollars for an imaginary tale without imagination."
Even so, I'd rather remember it than Final Crisis...
Quote : Originally Posted by Thrumble Funk
"I sit corrected. You and Owlman BOTH win the thread."
When it comes to Superman and Batman, Grant Morrison is nothing but a 50's cover band in a 70's psychedelic funk style.
Tim Drake, you also forget how Countdown had the sub-plot "Monarch vs. The Monitors" & the Countdown: Arena tie-in miniseries. Did either Infinite or Final Crisis have anything tying into that? HECK NO!!
I believe the current Action Comics issues have a back-up story featuring Captain Atom and it concerns his role as Monarch.
It's Batman reliving past experiances while the Joker plots to take over his body. Meanwhile, Bat's former sidekick has taken up the role of Batman. How is that like "Reborn" ???
Crisis On Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis, and Final Crisis are supposed to act like a "trilogy" of sorts. Can you tell me how Final Crisis is a worthy follow-up to the previous two? The only connections are highly superficial.
Well, Final Crisis is a follow up to COIE, as it continues and expands on the story of the Monitor(s), who was/were the central characters of COIE. I don't think that's highly superficial. Now you may not like Morrison's interpretation of the Monitors (and by extention, his revising of the nature of the Monitor and Anti-Montor in COIE as their "probes"), but it doesn't invalidate that the story certainly connects with COIE through both the nature of the multiverse and the Monitors .
Quote : Originally Posted by Tim Drake
Most of the groundwork for Bruce's death was laid before Final Crisis, and having Batman RIP amount to nothing more than a year-long teaser for about three pages of Final Crisis was nothing but cheap marketing at its worst.
I think RIP stands on it's own quite well as an exploration of what makes Batman the ultimate crimefighter (he bests the Devil afterall). If they hadn't hyped it as the "Death of Batman" it may have played better, but the "Last Rites" issues really dovetail nicely with Final Crisis.
Quote : Originally Posted by Tim Drake
As for the New Gods... they're dead. So what? It's barely been touched upon since, and what was supposed to lend it gravity beforehand failed to do so. If Morrison hadn't kept everyone in the dark and/or changing his mind, Countdown and Death of the New Gods might actually have added something worthwhile to that whole mess and made me feel something for the New Gods in Final Crisis. As it was, they were just annoying to me, taking the focus that should have been on the main characters of the DCU.
Countdown and DotNG were an editorial mess up of the highest order and DC should rightly be raked over the coals for them, but that doesn't impact Morrison's story. But you repeat another point that I find interesting, that the focus should have been on the main characters of the DCU. Looking at the original Crisis, the focus there was on the Monitors, Harbinger, Pariah, and Alex Luthor, all characters created for the event. Despite this, it was a successful event, where as Infinite Crisis and Identity Crisis, which did focus on the main DC characters, were both awful messes. So I don't think that who the event focuses on really factors into how it comes off as much as a good story does. Obviously we don't agree on what makes a good story (nor should we, it's highly subjective), but I think COIE disproves that it has to be the JLA at the centre of an event to pull it off.
Quote : Originally Posted by Tim Drake
And as for J'onn, like most of the "momentous" events of Final Crisis, his death was treated as less than a footnote, when it should have been one of the centerpieces. Major events for the main characters got sidelined (at best) in favor of Morrison's "Fifth World" characters and the Monitors.
I can see where this would upset fans of the character, no question. To continue the COIE analogy however, Earth-3 was destroyed in as much page space as was given to J'onn's death. Kole (a major Character in the leading book at the time) and Huntress (A DC mainstay) were obliterated in less space. I think it was very much in keeping with the pacing of the story, where Evil stays one step ahead of the heroes and rapidly builds up steam in the first 4 issues.
Quote : Originally Posted by Tim Drake
No, you're missing my point. The DCU titles have picked up on what they should have. My problem is that those events - the deaths of J'onn and Bruce, Barry's return, the whole Mary Marvel mess, etc - were sidelines and footnotes, when they should have been the main story. By focusing on new characters no one cares about the main story of Final Crisis, in and of itself, is inconsequential, and easily (and best) forgotten.
Again, I'd disagree that they were sidelines or footnote, and say they were consequences of the main story and certainly a part of it. And despite your disdain for the New Gods, the removal of Darkseid is a major status Quo change for the DCU as he's been trotted out as the preeminent villain for the past 20 years. RE-introducing the Multiverse to the DCU at large is also an event of consequence, albeit one they are holding back on exploring until Morrison gets to it.
Once again, you are free to like or dislike the series, but you can't argue it wasn't connected to the other Crises or was without consequence to the DCU.