[quote=Bat-Phreak;5400778]The rulings are not mutually exclusive.

The PAC definition of DAMAGE TAKEN refers to how much damage the character would take "assuming the character is not KO'ed." This implies you can click through at least 1 KO click.
[quote]

Does this mean

a) DAMAGE TAKEN = Attacker's Damage Value + Modifiers

OR

b) DAMAGE TAKEN = (Attacker's Damage Value + Modifiers) - Opponent's Damage Reducers

??????

This is going to be important to figure out, too because I've got the feeling that Juggernaut's Trait that says that he loses the trait when he "takes 3 damage" was designed to reflect someone like the Hulk hitting him so hard that his dial must be clicked 3 slots down.

If that's not the case, all the characters with three damage would be able to remove that trait because he technically could've taken 3 damage from them, even though it was reduced to 1 after invulnerability or impervious was applied.

It is (b) and that's because "opponent's damage reducers" ARE "modifiers". The rulebook is pretty clear on this.

First, there's damage VALUE. That is what is printed on the character's dial. This number can be adjusted through replacements and modifications, though it must obey the rule of three.

Second, there is damage dealt. In the generic case of an attack, you take the damage value (such as it is, after calculating all of the replacements and modifiers that apply to the damage value) and then you calculate everything that alters that number. Things like critical hits alter the damage dealt. Damage reducers like Toughness alter the damage dealt. There are feats and BFCs galore that alter the damage dealt. ALL of this becomes the damage dealt.

Lastly, there is damage taken. I know of no mechanics out that that alter "damage taken". There are mechanics that key off of it (do this when damage is taken, this affect happens if 3 damage is taken, etc.) but it is not typically a value that is altered.

Let me see if I got this straight...

Superman's damage value is 3 and he is carrying a heavy object. I twice perplex his damage value (+2) and make a close combat attack on Batman with toughness.

Normally, I would say that Superman is dealing 6 clicks of damage (3+2+2 = 7 --> and apply the rule of 3 to cap it at 6) and Batman is taking 5 clicks of damage (-1 for toughness).

However, since the rule of 3 doesn't apply until all modifiers have been accounted for, I should say that Superman is dealing 7 clicks of damage and Batman is taking 6 clicks of damage (3+2+2-1=6 --> and 6 is within the rule of 3).

Is my opponent clicking Batman 5 or 6 times?

Once upon a time, objects modified damage DEALT. When they did, it would have meant that Superman's damage VALUE was a 5 (with the perplexing). The damage dealt would have been adjust up 2 from the obejct and then down 1 from the Toughness, for a total of 6.

TODAY (and since the Legion rulebook, IIRC), objects modify the damage VALUE. As such, the modifications are subject to the rule of three. Therefore, in thhat same example, Superman's damage VALUE is 3+2+2 which is 6, not 7, due to the rule of 3. That damage value of 6 is reduced by 1 for Toughness and becomes a daage dealt of 5.

Hope that clears things up.
and that when he dealt damage with a heavy object, it would increase that damage dealt, meaning he would

thanks for the explanation, but I'm still bit confused when it comes to this power, and I think it's because of the wording between "damage dealt" and "damage taken"

So if GSX Sabretooth hits GSX Wolverine while they are both on their first clix, would I say:

a) Sabretooth dealt Wolverine 3 damage and Wolverine has taken 2 damage

OR

b) Wolverine was dealt 3 damage, reduced it with Toughness, and has taken 2 damage?

I know this might sound smart-allecky going through it like this, but it's really not my intention; I'm sure some of you might know the lawyeristic fervor that can show up at OP and absolutely ruin what you thought was a sound build or strategy. I'd rather pick the nits now than get frustrated about seemingly fluid rulings or changes in the middle of an otherwise fun match.

what happens if Sabretooth is KO'd?

The same thing that happens when he loses the power - characters he previously hit that took 3 damage cannot heal.

It depends which Wolverine you're talking about. In all cases, Sabretooth on top click sports a 3 damage.

GSX #009 Wolverine has Super Senses. If he fails to make his roll, Sabretooth's damage value is 3. As there are no modifiers, the damage dealt is 3. And Wolverine then takes 3. And Wolverine's player is upset because the trait allowing Wolverine to heal each turn is now useless.

GSX #052 Wolverine has Toughness. Sabertooth's damage value of 3 combined wtih Toughness causes the damage dealt to be 2. Therefore, the damage taken is 2, not enough for Sabretooth's power to activate.

Don't agree with #1 because a lost power is a power that no longer shows on the characters combat dial, where as a KO'd character is defeated and removed from the game.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

(Sorry I meant to clarify that I meant Horseman Wolverine in the description)

That is exactly what I thought it was, but I just wanted to make sure I was understanding whether we were counting by number printed on the dial or the actual number of slots were clicked. Same applies to Juggernaut's Trait then as well, so my assessment before was accurate, too. Thanks again!

Woah. THat's harsh.
OK, this guy is a Phoenix-killer.
THanks for the clarifications !

As of today, with the new Player's Guide, damage taken is the number of clicks you would take if nothing else stops you from clicking (like KO symbols or LIVE)

Correct. So short of reducing actual damage dealt, it is pretty hard to prevent Sabretooth from mauling someone.

So damage taken is now equal to the number of clicks you have physically turned the dial, correct? If not, could you please point out where I might see a difference?

Would the Blob's SP be one of these instances?

No. Notice the "would be". That means that when you are determining how much damage would be taken, for game effects that care like Kick Me! or Mortal Wound, you don't care about KOs or stuff like LIVE!.

Blob is not one of those instances, as it does not prevent the dial from turning. Instead, it ignores all but 1 damage dealt to the character.

So unless you perplex sabertooths damage down, its a wrap for tryIng to heal that character. And I guess the same goes for juggs.

So basically whatever damage you would take before traits and reducers is considered "damage taken" would sabertooth stop deadpools trait from Wos?