The point in bold is where I think the disconnect might be coming from. Quake does not cause KB based on damage.

QUAKE
Give this character a close combat action; this character’s damage value becomes 2 and is locked. Make a close combat attack that targets all opposing characters this character can attack with a close combat attack. Each hit character is knocked back 2 squares.

So the damage value is irrelevant. Your damage value could be locked at 1 or 1,000,000, but you would would still knockback each hit character 2 squares, regardless of damage dealt.

So the question was if this was the intention or not, because as of now there is nothing preventing you from knocking back the character when you hit them based on the wording of Quake, and then knocking them back because of any other effect that would cause knockback, which would in most cases be based on the damage dealt to a character after rolling doubles.

I wording on the new Force Blast is what really confuses the issue, I think. It goes out of its way to say its KB would only happen if no other does which would imply that abilities such as Quake can cause additional KB.

Yeah if FB did not have specific wording to prevent additional KB from occuring, then I could see the intention be only 1 KB results. However a similair ability to quake exists, and had specific wording preventing double KB situations. Since Quake does not have this added wording, and causes KB at an different time than normal aka before damage is dealt I think it works how I said earlier.

However it would be nice to get an orange to confirm one way or the other.

Except that while Quake KB=Quake Damage Value is true, it being relevant is an assumption. Quake now deals a fixed 2 damage based on a successful attack. It happens to be the same amount of squares as the DV is locked at, but it isn't tied to the damage taken in any way. On the other hand, KB from doubles is directly tied to damage taken. So there's no reason to suppose that the KB from Quake is intended to be a replacement effect.

I'd guess we have no Orange input either because they're discussing it themselves or because they haven't noticed this.

What's knock back?

When does it occur?

Is there some reason you wouldn't look at the knock back rules to find out what happens to the hit characters. Then alter those rues only where the quake rules tell you to? (and they do not tell you the when)

Even if you were to change knock back into a when the character is hit situation. Damage is also dealt when a character is hit. So, looking at knock back that way would still lead to it being a simultaneous effect that occurs at the same time damage is dealt. Leading to the active player deciding which of those happens first.

I still think you follow all the knock back rules normally, only altering them in the way you are told to, which is each hit character going 2 squares. When and which direction stay the same, as well as other stuff.

I might be reading too much into this but...

Isn't there a window between actually being hit, resolving triggers on hit, and then moving on to dealing actual damage?

I'm only arguing because it's not clear to me that Quakes KB would technically take place in the same window as regular KB. At this point I'll accept whichever answer an Orange may provide.

Edit - Blades is an example of something occurring on a successful hit before reaching the damage dealing portion. By the wording on Quake, I'd think that's when you'd apply the knock back before moving onto the damage portion. I don't know if that's the intent on Quake but that's how I'm reading its text.

I'm entrenching here until we get an orange (not to really be that guy lol).

Both sides have raised good points, and neither side has been able to counter all opposing points. I remain unconvinced!

Right. It's not that I find a compelling argument that the effects stack, it's that there is no compelling argument that they do not. Be interesting to see what the final answer is.

Dealing damage is triggered by a hit, and there isn't a general rule that says other effects also triggered by a hit have priority and get to always go first. Some individual effects do have their own special rules that let them squeeze in there, but those are specifically telling you to resolve those effects first and they apply just to those effects.

DEALING DAMAGE
When an attack hits, the damage dealt to the target is equal to the attacker’s damage value, modified by any game effects. The target takes that much damage, modified by any game effects. The target’s combat dial is turned clockwise a number of times equal to the damage taken.

That's true but then the active player would choose the order of resolution of things that occur at the same time.
So you hit with quake with doubles.
1)This generates a KB from Quake(this is 2 regardless of damage)
2)Damage dealt via quake

However KB from rolling doubles does not occur until after damage dealt is resolved. since it is based on the actual damage done after reducers crits and such.

so you could choose to resolve the above in any order, I would choose to do 1 then 2 as then the KB from doubles is less confusing.

If you do get both KB from Quake and KB from doubles I think this should show they actually occur at different times. so you would have a kb of 2 then a kb based on damage dealt, not 2+damage dealt.

But it would be nice to see an orange response.

I see what you're saying.

Agh! I'm not used to games not having structured layers and windows. Inserting some powers but not others even though the trigger event seems the same is very odd to me and makes it difficult to judge what happens when.

I dont think it would matter too much what order you did it in Quake KB (the movement part) or Damage from the Quake attack. Bear in mind any damage from KB should normally happen after damage from the attack (unless specifically noted otherwise)...

2013 Rulebook p. 11

Page bump, still hoping for an official answer.

Need an Orange bump and a new question about Knock Back.

What happens if Angrir rolls doubles on his "Hammer Clobber" power?

I don't see in the wording anything that would make the knockback would be before the damage is dealt from the attack.

I also don't believe that the knockback would stack.

we will see when a deputy responds.

thanks, Rob