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You still roll for Impervious in those cases because P/PB and EW deal penetrating damage. Penetrating damage doesn't ignore anything at all. Instead, it just simply prevents damage from being reduced.
Now, if Superman's Impervious was ignored (say, by Pulse Wave), you absolutely would NOT roll the d6.
So, yeah, upon rereading the OP's post, he does indeed seem to be talking about Loki as the target of the attack. In that case, if Loki's Shape Change is ignored, there is no roll.
and the question that drove it:
Quote : Originally Posted by Zeratil
Just switched over from MTG to Clix and I have a power interaction/timing query:
CW Loki's trait gives him Shape Change that on a 6 makes all ranged attacks impossible against friendly characters. If someone who ignores Shape Change attacks, do I still get a roll? Or does ignoring SC ignore the roll and thus the chance to proc the special ability?
I agree that is the most recent official ruling we have. And I'm certainly fine with it. However their have been quite a few changes between now and then so it wouldn't hurt to have it reiterated or whatnot.
aqhoffman- greatest post possibly ever
jtallday- Jon I wouldn't challenge you if I wasn't sure you are wrong cuz I don't have that kind of energy.
Well spotted. Norm's ruling was posted by itself earlier in the thread and, taken in a vacuum, I wasn't convinced it was necessarily directly applicable to this interaction but, looking at the rest of the thread, it seems pretty clear that it was intended to apply to Battle Fury as much as to Pulse Wave.
Well the least amount of assumptions in this case is that the "can use shape change" is ignored by the attacker hence no shape change roll for the chance of rolling a 6.
A greater assumption would be that a mechanic that ignores only works if the power is not within another power, trait or other game mechanic.
Can use Shape Change vs Ignores Shape Change.
The question at hand is if you still roll for shape change even though it is ignored triggering the second half of Shape Shifter.
It has been consistently ruled that you would not roll for an ignored power, an ignored power does not trigger anything. I wish it did.
This may be another example of [IT: Ignores blocking terrain] and Batman Cowl (or The Hand ATA among others) where there is a LOT of debate, but the oranges pass on a ruling based on intent AFTER the item is released.
If history is any indication, this debate and similar threads can go on and on but an official ruling won't come out until the end of May when the set releases.
The biggest question will be if it's a modified SC (meaning it wouldn't work) or a separate statement (meaning it could). My personal interpretation is more akin to Plasticity vs. ignoring figures for movement (since you ignore the power, the other aspect doesn't apply) than IT:blocking vs Cowl (where it's not the terrain that's giving the ability, but the Cowl), but we'll see in about a month more than likely.
-Heroclix is not a game of logic, it's a game of strategy .... after all, when's the last time that you saw a giant (using a stealth ability) that was hiding behind a swingset... and nobody could SEE him????
let look at both powers and the word ignore as a whole frist
Quote
SHAPE SHIFTER: Mystique can use Shape Change. When she does and the result is 6, opposing characters can't attack her this turn.
from her card in heroclix.com
Quote
Battle Fury
This character ignores Shape Change, can't make ranged
combat attacks, can’t be carried, and can't be targeted by
Incapacitate or Mind Control.
player guide
Quote
IGNORES: Is not affected by or treats the stated property or effect as if it didn’t exist or happen.
core rule book pg #25
we can see that ignore state the it act like it didn't exist/happen their for if it doesn't exist/happen then how can you roll for it? if you can't roll for it then it doesn't happen at all.
[quote=Jarimy123"And on the 13th day, of the 9th month, of the 2013th year, Munchoboy declared - "let them eat crow!""[/QUOTE]
Battle Fury This character ignores Shape Change, can't make ranged
combat attacks, can’t be carried, and can't be targeted by
Incapacitate or Mind Control.
That character may treat it like it doesn't exist, but Mystique doesn't ignore it.
The attacker would ignore the shape change but Mystique would still get to roll for it. It still is on her dial.
Shape Change When this character is chosen as the target of an attack, you may roll a d6. On a result of 5 or 6, the attacker can’t target this character with an attack this turn and the attacker may choose another target character instead. The attacker then makes the attack unless there are no targets, in which case the action resolves without an attack.
The attacker ignores her shape change but that's the only character who does.
Regardless, I'm surprised an orange hasn't chimed in. Either that or they are discussing it.
Quote : Originally Posted by normalview View Post
You still roll for Impervious in those cases because P/PB and EW deal penetrating damage. Penetrating damage doesn't ignore anything at all. Instead, it just simply prevents damage from being reduced.
Now, if Superman's Impervious was ignored (say, by Pulse Wave), you absolutely would NOT roll the d6.
So, yeah, upon rereading the OP's post, he does indeed seem to be talking about Loki as the target of the attack. In that case, if Loki's Shape Change is ignored, there is no roll.
The above ruling seems pretty clear to me. Ignoring in the general sense would pre-empt the activation of a power. So in the case of Battle Fury ignoring Shape Change you would not even get to roll. Shape Shifter may not actually be Shape Change but it does rely on the roll to activate. Ergo Shape Shifter does not activate.
As long as a figure has been officially previewed they can make rulings on it.
By saying 'can' you mean must right? And is the timing before Thursdays or after? I'm sure that if they were Pulse Waved before the post, yet that action didn't resolve until after the post then the post is treated like it was never posted...
Somebody better check to see if they are ok. This game would collapse into a Barnstable if they have been Nitro'd.
This seems like a super drawn out thread made by really, really, specific wordings. Seems pretty obvious, if something is "ignored" it doesn't have any effect, cannot trigger, etc, etc, it's like it doesn't exist.
Battle Fury ignores Shape Change. So, if a Battle Fury guy attacks Mystique she cannot use Shape Change. Her trait is Shape Change + something else. You don't get the + something else unless she can trigger Shape Change first.
I'm with the post by normalview, makes a whole lot of sense.
This seems like a super drawn out thread made by really, really, specific wordings. Seems pretty obvious, if something is "ignored" it doesn't have any effect, cannot trigger, etc, etc, it's like it doesn't exist.
Battle Fury ignores Shape Change. So, if a Battle Fury guy attacks Mystique she cannot use Shape Change. Her trait is Shape Change + something else. You don't get the + something else unless she can trigger Shape Change first.
I'm with the post by normalview, makes a whole lot of sense.
I get the ruling by Normalview and I wouldn't have questioned it but the recent additions to the PG with Pulse Wave and ignoring being 'selective' have me intrigued.
From the PG.
While Pulse Wave ignores powers and abilities, it does not counter them. Therefore, terrain created as a result of using a power is considered terrain and affects Pulse Wave normally, even if the character generating that terrain is within range of the Pulse Wave. Characters holding an object due to a feat or power would still be able to hold the object and even use the held object (if it helps defensively).
So Super strength is being ignored by Pulse Wave but the character still has it. My line of reasoning in this example is that Battle Fury ignores Shape Change but Mystique still has it. If I still have it why couldn't I roll for it? Sure on regular shape change the roll makes no difference to the character ignoring it but in this specific case it does.
This thread has evolved into more of a discussion than a particular question.
the easiest ruling is that because it is ignored, you don't get to roll. this is the current ruling (as previously pointed out by others), and likely to continue to be the ruling because again, it is simple.
it could be ruled that you could roll (even though it doesn't do anything). in this case, you might roll a 6. if you did... it would not affect the attack by the Battle-fury character. why? because in that character's little red tinted angry world, you never rolled shapechange. but hey, it would stop other people from attacking her in the turn.
but that isn't easy, and it just doesn't work for me, and will just make more trouble down the line. it also isn't very thematically appropriate.
Lando: do you think that pulse wave would trigger a roll and possible exclusion for Mystique?
my problem is pulse wave and battle fury represent un-constrained attacks. an explosion doesn't care if you look like it's mother, and neither does a Berserker while in the rage.
not rolling speeds up the game, makes the ruling, and future rulings, obvious, and it fits theme. this all looks win-win-win.