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Well that definitely looks contradictory to me, so now I am just totally confused.
There is a huge distinction. Superman and Superman do not require to block the Line of Fire for their power to work. JLSG Superman must block the line of fire between the attacker and the target for his power to be usable.
Since Pulse Wave Ignores characters, it is impossible for JLSG Superman to block line of fire to target. That is why his power will never work against Pulse Wave. I don't like it, but from a game sense it makes sense.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
Just so I have this clear, emails are saying that if Superman & Superman switch places with a character attacked in a Pulse Wave AoE, S&S would still get to use their powers because they were not in the AoE when the initial Line of Fire was drawn?
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
Just so I have this clear, emails are saying that if Superman & Superman switch places with a character attacked in a Pulse Wave AoE, S&S would still get to use their powers because they were not in the AoE when the initial Line of Fire was drawn?
Correct. With Pulse Wave the powers/abilities possessed/used by characters are only ignored if they were in the initial line of fire being drawn prior to the line of fire being drawn for the actual attack.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
Correct. With Pulse Wave the powers/abilities possessed/used by characters are only ignored if they were in the initial line of fire being drawn prior to the line of fire being drawn for the actual attack.
Well, to beat a dead horse, this doesn't seem like a good decision to me.
Pulse Wave, in order;
Ranged Combat Action is given to activate Pulse Wave.
Area of Effect is determined by using half of the attackers Range.
Draw Line of Fire to all characters in the AoE.
- LoF ignores all game effects except for walls, blocking, and elevated.
- game effects possessed or used by characters with LoF drawn are ignored until attack is resolved.
- if LoF is drawn to more than one character, damage is Locked at 1.
Each character hit is dealt damage.
Superman & Superman are to be placed "before the attack roll". Of all the things specifically detailed in Pulse Wave, the timing of the attack roll is not one of them. If I were Judging (prior to the email), since the timing is ambiguous, I would say they were simultaneous and let the active player decide the order of events. A perfectly cromulent order could be:
Ranged Combat Action to declare Pulse Wave.
Area of Effect is determined.
Draw Line of Fire to character(s), to determine target(s) of the attack.
- Ask if LOOK, UP IN THE SKY will be activated.
- If so, S&S is now the target, in the AoE, with LoF drawn to them.
- - game effects possessed or used by characters with LoF drawn are ignored until attack is resolved.
- - etc.
I guess I just see it as Pulse Wave is written to ignore effects. To paraphrase a former Orange, just because the specific way an effect is worded to prevent an exception that allows you to circumvent the normal way another effect works doesn't mean that it should work like that, and should receive errata so that it functions within the intent of rules as a whole.
Or, maybe I'm looking into this too much. I guess my bottom line is, if an effect places a character into the AoE of Pulse Wave, then they should be considered to have LoF drawn to them and have their effects ignored. It would be within the spirit of Pulse Wave, and would be a heck of a lot easier to explain that way than trying to explain it the way that it officially works now.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
BIG BLUE BOY SCOUT: Superman can use Invincible. Once per attack, when a friendly character within 6 squares and line of fire would be hit by a ranged combat attack, you may place Superman adjacent to that character so that he blocks the line of fire from the attacker. If you do, modify Superman's defense value by +2 for this attack, and the attack targets him, instead, even if it would be illegal.
If figure A targets figure B with PW, and Superman is within 6 squares of the target but out of range of the PW, does the PW then only hit superman even if figure B is within the PW range still. Also, since the power activated outside the PW range, would the +2 defense still be in effect or ignored?
------------------------
Hello David,
In order to use Superman's effect, he must be able to block line of fire. Since the lines of fire used when activating Pulse Wave ignore all game effects (including characters) except elevated and blocking terrain, he would not be able to block line of fire to the target and not be able to use his effect.
Heroclix Rules Team
So Supes can't even jump into the PW like S&S. Psh... so much for being a boy scout that he can't even fly into an explosion.
-Heroclix is not a game of logic, it's a game of strategy .... after all, when's the last time that you saw a giant (using a stealth ability) that was hiding behind a swingset... and nobody could SEE him????
Well, to beat a dead horse, this doesn't seem like a good decision to me.
Pulse Wave, in order;
Ranged Combat Action is given to activate Pulse Wave.
Area of Effect is determined by using half of the attackers Range.
Draw Line of Fire to all characters in the AoE.
- LoF ignores all game effects except for walls, blocking, and elevated.
- game effects possessed or used by characters with LoF drawn are ignored until attack is resolved.
- if LoF is drawn to more than one character, damage is Locked at 1.
Each character hit is dealt damage.
Superman & Superman are to be placed "before the attack roll". Of all the things specifically detailed in Pulse Wave, the timing of the attack roll is not one of them. If I were Judging (prior to the email), since the timing is ambiguous, I would say they were simultaneous and let the active player decide the order of events. A perfectly cromulent order could be:
Ranged Combat Action to declare Pulse Wave.
Area of Effect is determined.
Draw Line of Fire to character(s), to determine target(s) of the attack.
- Ask if LOOK, UP IN THE SKY will be activated.
- If so, S&S is now the target, in the AoE, with LoF drawn to them.
- - game effects possessed or used by characters with LoF drawn are ignored until attack is resolved.
- - etc.
I guess I just see it as Pulse Wave is written to ignore effects. To paraphrase a former Orange, just because the specific way an effect is worded to prevent an exception that allows you to circumvent the normal way another effect works doesn't mean that it should work like that, and should receive errata so that it functions within the intent of rules as a whole.
Or, maybe I'm looking into this too much. I guess my bottom line is, if an effect places a character into the AoE of Pulse Wave, then they should be considered to have LoF drawn to them and have their effects ignored. It would be within the spirit of Pulse Wave, and would be a heck of a lot easier to explain that way than trying to explain it the way that it officially works now.
So, do you also feel EE+PW should ignore the game effects of the characters "splashed" by EE?
Do you feel the intent of Unspoken and Atrocitus is that Pulse Wave shouldn't let you overcome the fury of battle?
Where do you draw the line?
And for S&S, they trigger "before the attack roll", that would mean "just before the attack roll" to me. If it could trigger as early as you want it to in your example, why couldn't it just trigger a little earlier, like prior to a Skrulls TA roll? Or what about even prior to a ranged combat action because that's still before an attack roll? Or what about just during S&S's turn because that will definitively be before an attack roll against one of S&S's buddies?
Sun Tzu Clan Leader
Quote : Originally Posted by Uberman
When a game hums along, full of action and excitement, it's a barnburner!
When it trudges forward glacially, bogged down by debates over ridiculous rules minutia, it's a Barnstable!
So, do you also feel EE+PW should ignore the game effects of the characters "splashed" by EE?[/quote]
The interaction of PW with EE is quite clear, anyone inside the PW AoE is targeted, and would not be eligible for the EE "splash" damage, while anyone not in the PW AoE, but eligible for EE "splash" would not have effects ignored, since they are not in the AoE/LoF.
I understand what you're going for, this was just a bad example.
Quote : Originally Posted by anthony_barnstable
Do you feel the intent of Unspoken and Atrocitus is that Pulse Wave shouldn't let you overcome the fury of battle?
I cannot speak towards intent. That is strictly the providence of Game Design. Personally, I would have preferred if the ruling went that you could not activate Pulse Wave with Battle Fury.
But, that interaction does work because of the specific wording of Pulse Wave and Battle Fury. The attack must take place after targeting.
Quote : Originally Posted by anthony_barnstable
Where do you draw the line?
With the rules, as written in the Rulebook, PAC, and Player's Guide. The interaction between L,UITS and PW is not clearly defined in the rules, and needed an email for clarification. I disagree with that determination, because it is not clearly supported by the rules, and should receive an entry somewhere for official, printed clarification.
Quote : Originally Posted by anthony_barnstable
And for S&S, they trigger "before the attack roll", that would mean "just before the attack roll" to me. If it could trigger as early as you want it to in your example, why couldn't it just trigger a little earlier, like prior to a Skrulls TA roll? Or what about even prior to a ranged combat action because that's still before an attack roll? Or what about just during S&S's turn because that will definitively be before an attack roll against one of S&S's buddies?
First, the Skrull TA is the easiest. Shape Change is rolled when the target is chosen for an attack, and if successful, can't be targeted by that attack. So if the Skrull TA has a 6 rolled, then that character is never attacked, thus is never a target, so L,UITS cannot activate.
While the chain of events for this is not explicitly spelled out in the Rules as Written, it has been supported enough in Orange, and those determinations appear cromulent with the RaW.
As for "before the attack" seen as "just before the attack", that may be the intent, but that has not been established in any format I have borne witness to. "After actions resolve" has a PG entry to clarify the intent. While it may be a natural logical progression to apply that intent to "before", it has not been stated and the intent of the actual timing in the case of S&S has not been made clear.
Regardless, I still think it's a bad call.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword