I usually don't disagree with Greyholme, but what the heck.

Arnis can charge any where on the board on turn 2 for a total of 2 heat. The only thing you can do is hide. Not my favorite strategy. Or just play agility mechs and vtols.

With the new rules Arnis becomes even better. He is great defending an artillery turtle. The new rules also reduces the threat from infantry.

I have never killed this guy in combat. His army has often lost the game but he always emerges from the battle with just one or two self inflicted wounds.

He is simply uber as a mech can be. And you can't expect to play in a tournament without facing at least once.

Charge needs to be changed there is no doubt about it but banning arnis is not the way to go, although knowing WK they will do as mouch about this as they did about the Amazon Drac in MK (the reason why i stopped playing MK) ABSOLUTLY NOTHING, i have had to play arnis multiple times 3 times i have captured bypassed and charged the hell out of my opponents (it is always great to do that)

The flames are beginning to creep in a little, but overall this is a good discussion on an obvious problem.

Don't touch the movement of charge. As has been said, charge counters artillery. We poor kitties need that help.

The most obvious correction to me (and all it would need is a short FAQ entry) is that armor should protect against Charge and DFA. That will go miles towards protecting the big Mechs from the chargemonkeys.

Now, if you want to make it more sporting, allow the target to return fire. Somwhere above, there was talk of a free range attack for the target. That would be cool. The defender would have to take the heat for the attack, and if it hits, the damage should be applied at the same time as the Charge damage. But, it would certainly encourage a little more forethought. "Hmmm. I want Arnis to charge that Atlas. I might do 4 clicks to it (4+Brawling+Charge-Hardened) but I could take 5 clicks on the way in unless I can get into its rear arc." Now THAT is a risk I'd think twice about.

Certainly would give Arnis pause. But would still keep Katsu and Clyde charging. And no one complains about their 'monkey status.

So, to sum up:

Heavy and Hardened armor should work against Charge and DFA.

Allow return fire, unless the Charge begins in the rear arc of the target.

Since I just got him in a LI booster yesterday, nothing he is fine:p

Jk, of course


Charge needs to be changed, there is something wrong when close comabt is your best option with a full strength battlemech and besides, charge is supposed to be a last resort attempt.

Only do 2 damage at all times (still +1 for brawling), like ram. Or make so you can only charge 1x your primary speed.

OK here are my suggestiong, sorry if they have beensuggested already. Also note, Im a Classic Battletech player so you may see some semblance to those rules:

1) Running should be changed to 1.5 regular movement, not double. This is how it works well in CBT, and there is no reason it shouldnt work well here too.

2) There needs to be some way to balance out charging a 100 ton atlas with a 40 ton Dasher II. Maybe a modifier to the damage for both the charger and chargee. IE. IE Arniss charges a 22 defense mech. Since Arnis is only 20 defense normally he would deal 5 damage in the charge as normal but would take an additional 2 damage (the difference between the brutes armor he charged 22, and arnis' 20 armor, +2). This would make Arnis think twice about charging that atlas over there. Not sure this would work in reverse though.

3) The defender gets the free shot at the charger. Since the charger is running in a straight line and not trying to dodge fire, the charger does not get any SEs for movement such as evade.
This free shot would be resolved before impact. So click before the charge damage and contact occurs. Range of the defender is irrelevant as they get the shot as the target closes.

4) Defender gets to use all relevant SE Defense Equipment. Not sure if REacitve armor would be thrown in here since it is sorta kinetic damage.

5) Defender gets a bonus to defense or the attacker gets a negative to attack value, face it a mech is not going to sit there and stand still and let you charge him..

6) Charger MUST have clear straight LOS to target, none of this doing split S's to hit the target. Classic Battletech made the damage associated with charge depend on how many STRAIGHT hexes were moved before impact, if a turn occured the daamge decreased significantly.

Thats all I can think of for now...

Hope I contributed something.

Listen, the charge rules don't need to be changed any more than Arnis needs to be banned.

Charge can cause a monstrous amount of heat (especially if you are pushing) even if the mech has evade. And what is one of Arnis' weaknesses? That's right, heat. 3rd click has a minor shutdown and forth a major one.

Stop talking about banning and rule changes and start talking strategy. Arnis can be taken down by heat, VTOLs (either attacking or dropping infantry in close enough to move into base contact), Fa Shihs teamed up with artillery, transport dropping (infantry or vehicles), or by simply forcing him to keep moving until his own heat dial beats him.

Remember, units can't charge after making a break. Take advantage of it by basing Arnis constantly. Despite what you think, you can do it. There are other mechs with evade out there. Run into base contact with him, and if he wants to duke it out have as many of your guys join in as possible. Transports and VTOLs filled with infantry with high move as well can base Arnis too.

What you really need to do is design armies that are anti-charge and anti-artillery like I do. Truthfully, the strategy to take down one also usually works well on the other.

Take it from someone who's trashed Arnis several times already.

Oh yeah, all hail Jacob Bannson!

=============[THIS IS NOT A FLAME]=================

What people like you dont seem to understand, is that if this many people complain that something is a problem, then chances are it is, and if you say stuff like "just use strategy", then you are among the lucky few who dont have to worry about it in the hands of competent opponents as much as we do.

Like stated earlier. Arnis is not the problem. .. he is acutally quite easy to kill after a charge.

Charge is broken and I vote for the following.

1: Target MUST be in front arc.

2: Charging unit must have a clear straight line to target.. no charging around buildings.

3: Defender gets free attack BEFORE Charge attack takes affect with a +1 to damage. (thinking: think of the civil war battles when the attacker would charge straight at you.. pretty dang easy to shoot and the damage taken by the chargering unit is greater since he was running into the bullet rather then bullet running into the target.)

Cheers

Charge must be seen beyond the crashing mech, it's a concept taken from CBT and the Fluff from the ROW.
Charge must be depicted and understood as one of the TWO first strike options for mechs. (the another one is DFA) i aknowledge the need to make different mechanics for each type of attack and the fact that both Special attacks can basically be prevented, hindered or countered by:
Range
Basing opposing units.
Heat

however it keeps being the most effective way to stop a mech and a vehicle, it's also the benchmark ability of mechs. if it's removed, it would take away 30% of the value and usability of mechs. as i would generally split mech value in:
30% first strike as charge and DFA,
30% pushing for heath,
30% weapon damage potential
and a mere 10% for their SEs.

What's the solution, i woud say, tone down Charge (damage -1 and 1 damage to charger, 2 damage to attacker if failed or any other suggestion) and set ANOTHER First Strike ability, not so crippling for the target nor the
attacker as charge is and moderate it by the natural moderator of the mechs, the heat.

move and fire?, Overwatch?, move and Aim (to shoot next turn) two actions a turn?
Let the Pros make the playtesting and find out.

my 0.02

Call me the voice of dissent, but we were all complaining a week ago about mechs being underpowered! Now we want to take a away a mech mechanic? That makes no sense to me.

Folks, this is not CBT. It is not D&D. It is not Mageknight. This game is Mechwarrior: Dark Age. We have been dealing with Charge since the start of the game. We have all learned to employ screens with great success. Any unit that does not want to be charge bait has to be screened. If a unit goes off on it's own, it is going to get nailed.

Arnis is cool, yes. Wizkids doesn't make any money if it does not release cool units.

Should we change the rules for charge? Maybe. Not yet. There are enough rule changes on the table right now. Let's see how much all of the current changes affect charge. Besides, what would an ICE mech be without fully operational charge?

Heck, I am still unsure whether the new rules make mechs more viable. Sure, I could field mechs with my 450 points, or I could have waves of VTOLS. Which is better? Precedence says VTOLS, not mechs.

Of the current changes, I like LOS, straight line the best. Here's how it should work, IMO:

If you have line of sight, straight line to the target, charge works as per the printed rules. If you do not have either LOS or straight line, you may only move 1x your movement.

One more thought: All mechs may ram per the ramming rules at movement x1. Any mech with a melee attack may charge per the charge rules.

I know this is oversimplified and ignores artillery for the moment, but here goes:

Charge mechs beat tankdrop. Tankdrop beats high-defense mechs. High-defense mechs beat VTOL's. VTOL's beat charge mechs.

So what's wrong with this picture? It's a typical paper-rock-scissors game. The problem is that so many boosters contain neither paper nor rock nor scissors. There are few effective chargers, few effective tankdrop combos, and few effective VTOL's. This leads to very stale game play with the same few units over and over again ad nauseam. I also don't think it simulates futuristic combat very well (the bumperbots argument).

We can talk all day about the levers we could pull to weaken charge: reduce range (or otherwise restrict the threat area a charger can control, for example straight line / LOS restrictions); reduce chances of success (+1 defense, dodge rolls, etc.); reduce damage to target (flat damage, primary +0, armor is effective, etc.); increase damage to attacker (flat damage, target's primary damage, give target a chance to shoot back, etc.).

We can also talk all day about the levers we could pull to weaken tankdrop: restrict to towed units, give unloaded passengers a token, +2 to target's defense, give target a chance to shoot back, etc.

I guess I'd like to see a game where charge and tankdrop and move-and-shoot VTOL's and artillery are no longer the primary game mechanics - no longer major elements in the paper-rock-scissors equation - but are gimmicky, offbeat tactics that only succeed in limited situations, and are more for color than for game balance. The main balance should come from the interplay of "traditional" infantry, tanks and mechs - those should be the paper, rock and scissors.

I think a simultaneous return fire rule offers the best chance of rebalancing the game and restoring realism. It would blunt the artificial range extension effect of charge, tankdrop and VTOL's. It could also result in faster games since many attacks would result in an immediate counterattack. Combined with the proposed artillery nerf and a reduction in heat effects (probability and severity), I think we'd see a bigger variety of units being fielded in competitive play.

I am working on a detailed return fire rule which I will post soon.

Oh I forgot to mention...

I bought a LI Booster yesterday for a tournament entry.

I pulled Arnis. How is it I felt all powerful and dirtt dirty dirty all at the same time..

Even though I have himm and am feeling a bit godlike, its VERY doubtful Id use him. Hes just WAYYYY to cheap for being an impossible to shoot at, impossible to hammer in close combat, way to fast (24 inches?!) cheese-monkey.

I have to agree with the general consensus here. Shorten the charge range. Even in CBT, there were weapons that could outshoot a charging mech. Not all but about half of them could. In MW:DA, nearly all mechs can outcharge a ranged combat attack, so it really does change the game into either "Chargemonkeys!" or hoping you have a high enough defense value that they miss the charge.

I definitely like the addition of factoring in heavy/hardened armor in the damage equation. But I do agree that strategy and tactics need to be more integral in the scenario. there will always be some units that seem more powerful or lend themselves to a particular tactic or players army/style. That is the nature of warfare. Sometimes, maybe a lot of times, you are outgunned so you have to do the best with what you have. Be creative, use the terrain and your units in new/unexpected ways. This has been my challege and one I have to work on all the time.

My 2 cents worth on charge.....it should be in a straight line, no more drunken charges. Also x2 movement is a bit much, maybe x1.5, even that outranges most ranged fire. Another solution might be to get rid of the fact that charge ignores armor mods. This might work but might also make for an increase in AP in new figs.