i believe cuting the speed value in half and shooting works yes the cinthia and bart become better but click them down if they get hit first its a grim future for them and the faster mechs yea most dont have over a 10 range if you put some serious thought into this it works all around the faster mechs pay a higher penalty but they move faster

Yep, it's really this kind of flexibility that makes the rules so appealing, I think.

I have to say, they're seeming better and better to me. One thing I'd like to know, though, is how heat is handled...

P.S.: Melicien, no implication of either ignorance or daftness (daftitude?) was intended, of course!

I definately think mlotoole0's suggestion has the most promise. Maybe we should call it MechWarrior: Advanced?

Hakkenshi, none taken.

I do like this idea. It seems to me that only giving M&S to certain, future mechs would mess with the entire mechanic.

Speed is already dealt with - some mechs move farther in a turn than others - that simulates relative speed. Relative range has already been dealt with (and paid for) from mech to mech. Allowing a new order or attack type allows all mechs to do the same things, within their current limitations.

Will some be better at M&S than others? Of course so. That will always be the case - whatever attack type we're talking about.

I handled heat in handled exactly the same as it is now. You take an order when you already have a token, its a push. For mechs that means a click of heat. The "action system" does have a couple of differences:

Venting cost 2 actions. Thus a mech can vent then do a quick move or shoot. If this order was a push, the mech still takes a click of heat at the end of the turn.

We created a commlink action. It cost 1 to perform. All units can do it as their last action. The unit simply removes all order tokens after the order it is performing is complete. Using this rule a mech can walk without getting an order token. A vehicle can move half to avoid artillery. If the order was a push, then the results of the push are applied prior to removing th order tokens.

We tried to give mechs as much flexability as possible for handling heat.

mlotoole0
it looks like your idea went thru a lot of thought. But honestly, Mechs need move and shoot more then any other unit to make them playable. if you give every unit move and shoot, there would be nothing special about Mechs.

Also, your rules are WAY to complex for Wizkids to ever even concider them. it might work for CBT, but I have yet to see a Chart ever used in MWDA, or in any WK game (except for bailing out in the Advanced Ace Piot rules in CS)

Your right and your wrong. I have not been able to teach these rules to my 7 yr old son. He is semi-proficient MWDA player but cannot grasp the 1 order = 3 actions idea. He is my litmus test.

My house rules are simpler in practice than the standard set. Determing which type of attack requires which type of order which allows the use of which SE is arcane at best.

Playing the current game requires the use of the SE Chart. The action chart is much simpler.

"My Rules" are not really my rules at all. They are an amatuerish adaptation of the Solarus7 stuff which Wizkids pulled from circulation. They were never intended for anything other than fun games. Rules lawyers would tear them to pieces.

I don't think it's a fix.

Instead of move and shoot, why not let 'Mechs use both their primary and secondary weapons separately during a turn? Maybe have them take an extra click of heat for using them both during a turn or something.

There would be restrictions of course like being within ranges, being in base contact etc, but it could be done.

Sure, greyholme, but how does that help 'Mechs be more balanced against the move-and-shoot tactics we see all the time that ALREADY outrange 'Mechs?

VTOLs' move-and-shoot is more useful than having 'Mechs fire both types of weapon. Tank-drop is more useful.

And being able to fire both weapons scarcely helps Melee 'Mechs. With mlotoole0's adaptation of Solaris, a Melee 'Mech could Quickshot, Half-move, Quickstrike, thus having used both weapons.

And a ranged combat 'Mech can STILL fire both its weapons, as you said. I'm ALL in favour of having a more mobile and active game.

mlotoole0, this "commlink" action sounds suspiciously like passing. ;) Wouldn't it be simpler to just say that you can forego an action out of your order to clear the unit of order tokens?

Thats exactly what boils down to. We were going to playtest tying the commlink action to having a unit with command SE on the field instead of the die roll.

The commlink action allows for much more efficient use of orders which is what the command SE is all about.

The "action" system is much more than allowing the mech to use both weapons. It tries to give all units a little flexabity in dealing with threats other than jumping in a transport. It also enhances mech vs mech combat. There is no one easy, fall back tactic for mech battles.

How's does that make them more balanced?
It allows them to deal out more damage than your normal unit.

The problem with 'Mechs is their cost versus usability on the battlefield.

Using 2 weapons or abilities during a turn is akin to the vtol's move and shoot. It makes the unit more user friendly, no?

Say I was able to use both my energy weapon on a 'Mech or vehicle, then target incoming infantry within my ballistic weapons range and number of targets.

I'd like that very much myself.

I could shoot at a vtol, then at something else as well with my 'Mech. Or shoot down the vtol with both weapons.

That is both defensively needed and offensively needed on the battlefield.

HA HA HA HA! Sorry, but 40k is one of the very worst mini games out there as far as balance and competent game design goes! (I should know, I've spent enough money on it!) As overpowered as close combat is in Mechwarrior, it's even more so in 40k. I quit playing 40k some time ago, because it was sickening to me that the most effective thing my space marines (not Cheese Templars or Cheese Angels or Cheese Wolves either, but plain ol' Ultramarine clones with no special rules) could do was to run up, get in base contact, and whack somebody over the head with a gun butt. Most games I see end up in a big scrap in the middle, which is fine if you like that kind of thing (Ork player, aforementioned Cheese Marine chapters, 'Nid player) but if you don't, you're mostly out of luck. 40k has one thing that kept me coming back, and that's great models -- but when I got sick of the outrageous expense and the lousy game system, I quit for good. Codex inflation (each new codex being more powerful than the last), Gav Thorpe playing the role of Timmy Jackson (KODT readers anybody?), continually increasing prices... oy, what a host of problems!

Classic Battletech, as wildly unrealistic as it is, is far superior, and it's far from flawless - there are a great many abusive things you can do in that system.

I'm with you up to here.

Quote

Using 2 weapons or abilities during a turn is akin to the vtol's move and shoot. It makes the unit more user friendly, no? Say I was able to use both my energy weapon on a 'Mech or vehicle, then target incoming infantry within my ballistic weapons range and number of targets.

This is where you lost me. How does this help if the units you want to hit are out of range? Tank-drop and VTOLs both vastly outrange 'Mech fire. If you add moving to that, the way the modified Solaris rules do, then it's fine. Otherwise it's just a lot of damage that will make people Charge even more instead of staying in range and getting blasted.

Quote

I could shoot at a vtol, then at something else as well with my 'Mech. Or shoot down the vtol with both weapons. That is both defensively needed and offensively needed on the battlefield.

Yes, it's needed, but you couldn't shoot those things with your 'Mech unless they were in range. Where they'd do their utmost not to be. If they strike you from outside your range, you're screwed.


mlotoole0, by "tying it to the Command SE", do you mean you'd NEED a unit with Command to use the commlink action? Shouldn't everyone be allowed to pass and thus remove a token?

I our original games we let everyone use the commlink action. Mechs tended to abuse it some. So we decided to try it next time around as a tie into command. This would make command useful no matter how many orders you had. Basically the command SE would be:

If you have a unit with command on the field, all your units may use the commlink action.

So otherwise units have to choose not to act for an entire turn? Hmm... That seems pretty rough. Won't units with Command become the next craze, though? There are some pretty good ones, and RotS has it on some really good 'Mechs.